2014 Surface modifier normal bug

[simonparish]

Change of behaviour from 2012-3 to 2014.

When building spline cages to be used with Surface modifier the normals now seem to be random and inconsistent. 

In pervious versions reversing the spline direction would flip the patch normal. In 2014 it is just random.

When opening a correct normal surface (all facing one consistant direction) made in 2012 and modified in 2013, into 2014 all the normals are flipped at random.  Reversing the spline corrects some patches but flip a different set of other patches, making fixing the surface a massive random trial n error process.  Adding one new spline can completely break a good surface.

It can be fixed by added a Normal modify onto the surface but this causes a MASSIVE delay when trying to modified the spline cage.

Can anyone confirm this as a 2014 bug?  Is it still apparent in 2015?

Example:

[simonparish]

Change of behaviour from 2012-3 to 2014.

When building spline cages to be used with Surface modifier the normals now seem to be random and inconsistent. 

In pervious versions reversing the spline direction would flip the patch normal. In 2014 it is just random.

When opening a correct normal surface (all facing one consistant direction) made in 2012 and modified in 2013, into 2014 all the normals are flipped at random.  Reversing the spline corrects some patches but flip a different set of other patches, making fixing the surface a massive random trial n error process.  Adding one new spline can completely break a good surface.

It can be fixed by added a Normal modify onto the surface but this causes a MASSIVE delay when trying to modified the spline cage.

Can anyone confirm this as a 2014 bug?  Is it still apparent in 2015?

Example:

[jonathan.matthews]

Hello and thank you for your posting.  Please take the time to post this information at the following Autodesk link:

Bug Submission

This is a direct link to our development team.

After posting you should recieve a tracking or submission number.  Please let me know what that is so I can keep an eye on it.

Thank you.

[jonathan.matthews]

Hello and thank you for your posting.  Please take the time to post this information at the following Autodesk link:

Bug Submission

This is a direct link to our development team.

After posting you should recieve a tracking or submission number.  Please let me know what that is so I can keep an eye on it.

Thank you.

[simonparish]

Hi Jonathan,

thanks for the interest, if you want to know more here is the case number.

Case 09578384 - 2014 Surface modifier normal bug

Simon

[simonparish]

Hi Jonathan,

thanks for the interest, if you want to know more here is the case number.

Case 09578384 - 2014 Surface modifier normal bug

Simon

[paulneale]

I didn't even know any one was still using the old surface tools. Good to see that it is still useful to some one. Thanks for posting the bug report.

[paulneale]

I didn't even know any one was still using the old surface tools. Good to see that it is still useful to some one. Thanks for posting the bug report.

[simonparish]

Ha Ha, it probably is a bit antiquated  but can be more flexible that a polymesh when doing R&D and the model is changing a lot or has slight variations in form.

Also one of the first bits of software I learnt was Hash Inc's Animation Master which was a patch modeller, then moved onto Alias PowerAnimator which had beautiful NURBS tools, only wish AD would finally get around to updating Max's NURBS with some of the great code that they own.

Until then spline cages will feature heavily in my workflow.

and it's still around...

http://www.hash.com/index.php?pcode=software_details

[simonparish]

Ha Ha, it probably is a bit antiquated  but can be more flexible that a polymesh when doing R&D and the model is changing a lot or has slight variations in form.

Also one of the first bits of software I learnt was Hash Inc's Animation Master which was a patch modeller, then moved onto Alias PowerAnimator which had beautiful NURBS tools, only wish AD would finally get around to updating Max's NURBS with some of the great code that they own.

Until then spline cages will feature heavily in my workflow.

and it's still around...

http://www.hash.com/index.php?pcode=software_details

[Steve_Curley]

Tip. HTML tags - Confucious not [i]Confucious[/i] 😉

You wouldn't have a small (non-copyrighted, ofc) example of this problem you could post here would you? Would be interesting to see if the same error shows up with a 2012 scene in 2015 too, either directly or having gone through 2013 as well.

[Steve_Curley]

Tip. HTML tags - Confucious not [i]Confucious[/i] 😉

You wouldn't have a small (non-copyrighted, ofc) example of this problem you could post here would you? Would be interesting to see if the same error shows up with a 2012 scene in 2015 too, either directly or having gone through 2013 as well.

[simonparish]

Hi Steve,

Sure thing, this is the file I sent to AD on the bug report. (with most of the customer detail removed)

The orignal cage was probadly built in 2011 and has had yearly amends and changes using the different Max version.  All worked ok in 2013 when there was a great speed improvement as I think some optimisation work must have been done as it used to get real slow with a heavy complex cage and surface.

2014 broke the old models that had worked fine.  A work around, as I think I said was to add a Normal modifier, but that I think that creates and even worst bug in the spline editor, as it sends Max into world of treacle.

Anyway have a play.  You may get a prize if you can tweak the cage to get all the normals to work. It is possible. 

[simonparish]

Hi Steve,

Sure thing, this is the file I sent to AD on the bug report. (with most of the customer detail removed)

The orignal cage was probadly built in 2011 and has had yearly amends and changes using the different Max version.  All worked ok in 2013 when there was a great speed improvement as I think some optimisation work must have been done as it used to get real slow with a heavy complex cage and surface.

2014 broke the old models that had worked fine.  A work around, as I think I said was to add a Normal modifier, but that I think that creates and even worst bug in the spline editor, as it sends Max into world of treacle.

Anyway have a play.  You may get a prize if you can tweak the cage to get all the normals to work. It is possible. 

[paulneale]

You might want to try jumping on the poly band wagon as the shapes that you have there are easy and fast to build as you don't have to do it one vert at a time as you do with splines. To each his own though, beauty of Max, 10 ways to do everything. Don't hold your breath for NURBS. 

[paulneale]

You might want to try jumping on the poly band wagon as the shapes that you have there are easy and fast to build as you don't have to do it one vert at a time as you do with splines. To each his own though, beauty of Max, 10 ways to do everything. Don't hold your breath for NURBS. 

[Steve_Curley]

Thanks for posting that. I see the same as you in 2014, in 2015 however it is perfect, but completely inside out. Simply hitting Flip on the Surface Parameters cures that. No "tweaking" required.
Definitely a 2014 issue - loading the scene in 2015 and saving back (what appears to be a perfectly ok scene) to 2012/13/14 then opening those scenes in their respective versions are all ok, except for 2014.

Quite what the chances are of getting that fixed now (as 2015 has been released) I don't know. Worth a try, I suppose.

[Steve_Curley]

Thanks for posting that. I see the same as you in 2014, in 2015 however it is perfect, but completely inside out. Simply hitting Flip on the Surface Parameters cures that. No "tweaking" required.
Definitely a 2014 issue - loading the scene in 2015 and saving back (what appears to be a perfectly ok scene) to 2012/13/14 then opening those scenes in their respective versions are all ok, except for 2014.

Quite what the chances are of getting that fixed now (as 2015 has been released) I don't know. Worth a try, I suppose.

[simonparish]

Now that is great to know.  Might be the reason I install 2015, but I normally wait a bit longer... Although SP1 is now out.

#Paul you know what they say about old dogs 

Thanks guys

[simonparish]

Now that is great to know.  Might be the reason I install 2015, but I normally wait a bit longer... Although SP1 is now out.

#Paul you know what they say about old dogs 

Thanks guys

[Steve_Curley]

Try it as a trial on a spare machine - just so you can check that full scenes are ok. There are a few issues with 2015 though most are not serious enough to cause real problems.

[Steve_Curley]

Try it as a trial on a spare machine - just so you can check that full scenes are ok. There are a few issues with 2015 though most are not serious enough to cause real problems.

[simonparish]

Just wanted to say s thanks for the 2015 tip, I have it installed and can confirm that the normal big is gone and wow, it is now FAST, FAST, FAST.

I may have to take off my hat off and eat me shoes, AD seem to have done a good job!!  

I even like the new layer manager, quad menu is a bit flakey but...anyway I digress.

Thanks again guys for your input.

[simonparish]

Just wanted to say s thanks for the 2015 tip, I have it installed and can confirm that the normal big is gone and wow, it is now FAST, FAST, FAST.

I may have to take off my hat off and eat me shoes, AD seem to have done a good job!!  

I even like the new layer manager, quad menu is a bit flakey but...anyway I digress.

Thanks again guys for your input.

[paulneale]

Make sure that you keep the service packs up to date in all your software as they correct the issues as they are found. I would say 90% of the issue that I see other people having is because they are still on the first install of any given version and have not updated. 

[paulneale]

Make sure that you keep the service packs up to date in all your software as they correct the issues as they are found. I would say 90% of the issue that I see other people having is because they are still on the first install of any given version and have not updated. 

[jonsteinberg]

the best link to bookmark for the 3ds Max bug reporting form is:

http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax-bugreport

this will always dynamically redirect to the correct form.

[jonsteinberg]

the best link to bookmark for the 3ds Max bug reporting form is:

http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax-bugreport

this will always dynamically redirect to the correct form.