ITEMs or not?

[Anonymous]

How do other companies use ITEMs? There are properties in the file like Revision Number and State, etc. that need to be displayed on drawings and it would be convenient if these properties could be viewed inside Inventor in the Data Card for the file also. I have tried to map these properties from the ITEM back to the files attached to this ITEM but when you move the ITEM to a released state the files attached to it are locked which prevents my properties from updating. See this post:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/vault-general-discussion/item-revision-and-lifecycle-on-ipt-or-iam-da...

Why isn’t there built in mapping that when you choose to manage Lifecycles and Revisions with ITEMs that Vault would automatically sync the state and rev properties between ITEMs and FILEs with the ITEM being the master? I have heard of managing state and revision on both items and files but I can see that being a real pain to keep track of.

I was hoping to use the Item Master to manage our bill of materials but I'm starting to wonder if it's worth the mess and we should just lifecycle and revision on the part level instead?

I would love to hear how others are doing this. Thanks!

[Neil_Cross]

Yeah that's basically the decision you have to make, you either go down the Items road or the Document lifecycles road.

About three years ago I had to make that decision, I needed Items because we needed to retain 200,000 part records and their BOMs from a now legacy system, but I wanted the flexibility and user friendlyness of document lifecycles.  This was before Items had an overhaul.

The only way I found to do this was to team up with a Dutch reseller called CADAC, they had an app called NXTDim (now called Organice) which synchronises document lifecycles and revisions with Item lifecycles and revisions.  When I found it, it was pretty flaky and unreliable, but over a couple of years we got it to a point where I could use it in production.  So that's how I ended up implementing items, all lifecycle and revision control is done via the documents and this app then synchronises the Items to match the file lifecycle state.

However, I wouldn't do it again.  After managing a massive drawing office using Items full time, it was a nightmare, Items are f****g horrible.  We had to employ someone full time to manage and handle the problems created by Items on a daily basis.  

Right now I'm at a new place and have the same type of system to design, and I've chosen to not go with Items and instead use a third party tool to export BOMs from Inventor rather than use Items, and stick with just document lifecycles.  I never want to deal with Items again and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone else either.  

[Anonymous]

Well that's disappointing to hear... So basically I need to forget about actually managing the BOM inside Vault and just leave that to ERP to handle?

[bushj]

I'm in a similar situation. If you don't mind, what 3rd party tool are you using for BOM exports? I need an export to show the parent-child relationship per part. Our ERP pulls in model data from a CSV file. So each line needs the parent, parent description, child part, child drescription, and typical fields like quantity, etc

Thanks 

Jason

[Anonymous]

There are some free and/or trial tools available from an Autodesk Partner here: http://www.mgfx.co.za/software/tools-for-inventor/

I haven't had time to try anything myself yet but I have heard good reports of other software on that site.

The app itself can be downloaded from the App Store here: https://apps.autodesk.com/ACD/en/Detail/Index?id=7914512388428641963&appLang=en&os=Win32_64

[Neil_Cross]

@Anonymous I don't think the BOM export tool on the MGFX site is in any way linked with Vault, it bypasses Vault altogether and just exports from Inventor which I guess is fine if that's what you want.

The third party program I used in the past to export BOMs from Vault was an Autodesk Consulting Services application called Vault Data Exchange.  There isn't much if any info on it available on public sites.  When an Item was released, Data Exchange would package up the BOM into an acceptable XML format as well as collecting any 2D documentation, then export that to a network folder ready for an ERP system to collect.  It also allowed for manual exports to occur on WIP BOMs.

If you're not using Items and still want Vault centric exports to ERP, there's a program called powerGate from coolOrange which has a nice website to show what it does.  I'm currently looking to implement that in a new place I'm at now.

[Anonymous]

I have been looking at the coolOrange products for a while now too. Marco Mirandola from coolOrange has a couple of classes recorded on AU that explain Data Standard and how it works. In his demo he shows a custom tab in the Vault that pulls in information from ERP like pricing and qty. available. Pretty awesome stuff... I'll take a closer look at powerGate.

[tschaeferZNBXX]

I am currently facing the same thing.  We have so much data that is contained in ITEMs that it is difficult to go away from them.  We have custom add-on software (before my time) that was written to preform task the coolOrange products will do.  Now I am task to bring up several business units and all in different countries but only one to use Vault currently is my business.  Debating if I should even inform the other business units about ITEMs.

[Anonymous]

@tschaeferZNBXX How are you using Items currently? Are you managing the entire BOM of a finished product in Vault using Items?

When I first started this project of moving to Vault Pro I had thought that it would work well to manage the whole BOM in Vault so that there would be a single point of truth for all parts, even the non-modeled ones. From Vault this information would be consumed by ERP, spare parts catalogs, fabrication and assembly shop floors, etc. I was told the way to do this was to use Vault Items to represent parts on my BOM and then attaching any appropriate parts, drawings, PDF files, etc to their corresponding Item. Lifecycle States and Revisions would then be handled on the Item level but editing restrictions would be set on attached parts based on the state of the Item. The big problem I have run into is that I cannot find a simple, reliable way to map the system properties of an Item (Lifecycle State and Revision) down to the attached parts. This means that to display a Rev Number on a drawing of a part is not possible because the Revision of that part is managed by an Item??? It seems like this should be a basic requirement in Vault Pro...

[tschaeferZNBXX]

We are basically handling them as two separate things. The Revision and other metadata is controlled by the files in Project Explorer and populates our drawings. The ITEMs are then used to create the BOM for ERP and pull drawing packages to send to be fabricated.

I find it strange that Vault does not seem to want just one point that controls both. I have found the same issues when trying to map properties from ITEMs to Files. One thing we have found that does work is both have to be in an EDIT state for it to work correctly.

One key thing I have noticed is to be sure you lay out all your users/groups/categories and lifecycles to ensure there is not any conflict between permissions for users. This takes some time to do but it will help if you have any access denied issues. Also be sure to not use the "Deny" check box unless you must. If you have a user that is in a group that has Deny checked it will over rule any other permissions that user may have.

[Neil_Cross]

+1

That issue is a throw back from the old days when all Vault had was Items, there was no revision control on files, so Items came along and all revision control was done against items.  Then X years later they develop this new file centric revision control system, and you had to chose one or the other.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, an application called CADAC Organice Vault can match your Item revision & lifecycles to your files.  It's good, it does the job, but it does introduce another level of micro-management to your job and another tier of mechanisms to potentially go wrong and need regular troubleshooting.  Give CADAC a shout, they can hook you up with a trial license for 30 days to test it out.

[Anonymous]

@Neil_Cross I am currently talking to a couple VARs and one of them mentioned a system that they used and it is probably CADAC so I'll wait to hear from them on that.

@tschaeferZNBXX OK that makes sense. I wasn't really thinking down the line of attaching parts to Items for the BOM export functionality but still managing lifecycles etc. on the part level. Just makes it more of a pain since I really have no need to manage revisions of drawings seperately from parts and the Item method handles all of the attached documents revisions at one point, right?

[Anonymous]

@tschaeferZNBXX Good point on the EDIT State. I think I see how that would work with the way I currently have the mapping set up if I would change the settings for the In Review and Released states to be editable which would let my custom part properties update from the system Item properties. That seems kind of dangerous from the standpoint that these parts could then be checked out and edited while in the "Released" lifecycle state or am I not understanding?

[tschaeferZNBXX]

I believe it does.

I was given a broken system and told to fix it lol. I am trying to understand fully Items still and their need for how we do business. If you have processes in place to control who does what, when they do it and how they do it then you should be fine. I do not think anyone really understood 100% Vault or any document management before I got here actually.

[Anonymous]

@tschaeferZNBXX Oh we have processes in place it's just that they aren't documented and everyone has slightly different ones... 

[tschaeferZNBXX]

Same thing I am running into. I am being task to develop them which of course being the new kid is not working well with the older workforce.

[Anonymous]

What makes it difficult in this type of situation is that you get only resistance from others on the team so you must have a perfectly clear understanding of what it is you are trying to accomplish in order to have the confidence to force change to happen.

I'm finding this difficult when I am quite new to the OEM Manufacturing processes myself. I have used Vault Basic for probably about 5 years now but only to help with file management, nothing on the PLM side of things. What we are running into is needing historical data with serial number breaks for spare parts catalogs, etc. and a method of controlling change. Right now it is much too easy to make changes to products in production which creates a nightmare for everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Back on topic with Vault Items, this is why I am disappointed with Items currently. I have been trying out different workflows and documenting them. To move Items from WIP to a released state requires me to go find the files attached to the Item, right click on them and choose Assign Update Item. Before that if you have properties mapping back from Items to files you must remember to sync properties inside the Item view. It is not a clean, simple process and I am anticipating a tough time getting something like this implemented.

[tschaeferZNBXX]

It is very cumbersome that is for sure. Also be careful as there is no folder structure currently in Item Master, all the records go into one big bucket.

[Anonymous]

So is that a reasonable workflow to use a top level Item of an assembly to export a .csv file to import to ERP systems?