Revit MEP Forum
Welcome to Autodesk’s Revit MEP Forums. Share your knowledge, ask questions, and explore popular Revit MEP topics.
cancel
Showing results for 
Show  only  | Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

How do I TAG a duct to show the RL

14 REPLIES 14
Reply
Message 1 of 15
Anonymous
1944 Views, 14 Replies

How do I TAG a duct to show the RL

Looking to TAG some duct to show oveall building RL (i.e. height from ground being 0m) instead of EL from related level. Any ideas?

Tags (3)
14 REPLIES 14
Message 2 of 15
AJA14
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi,

Just an idea. Create a shared parameter for the duct with a formula to calculate the height from ground and then use it in a tag. It might work.

Regards,

Ali Al-Hammoud
Structural Design Engineer
MZ & Partners Engineering Consultancy
Message 3 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: AJA14

Thanks Ali, your idea is a good one and I have thought of the same thing. Although how do you edit the duct family? It is a system family is there somewhere I can do this?

Message 4 of 15
CoreyDaun
in reply to: Anonymous

You cannot edit System Families. If you wish to add a Shared Parameter to them, you must add it as a Project Parameter and apply it to those Categories. This means that a formula cannot be used to determine it's value.

 

Have you tried using the Spot Elevation Tag? It's located on the Annotate tab. I use this to annotation the mounting height of wall-mounted devices because Revit is not able to include this info in the standard Tag. So, I essentially have two separate Tags for the devices in which I need to label the height.

 

Hope this helps!

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
⁞|⁞ Please use Mark Solutions!.Accept as Solution and Give Kudos!Give Kudos as appropriate to further enhance these forums. Thank you!
Message 5 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: CoreyDaun

Every time I select the spot tag tool Revit crashes LOL!

Message 6 of 15
CoreyDaun
in reply to: Anonymous

Well, that's no good! Do you have all the latest service packs?

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
⁞|⁞ Please use Mark Solutions!.Accept as Solution and Give Kudos!Give Kudos as appropriate to further enhance these forums. Thank you!
Message 7 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: CoreyDaun

Not sure will have to check. Someone has told me not to use that button before.........

Message 8 of 15
twellins
in reply to: Anonymous

Rebooting this thread.  It's 2024 and this is still a thing in revit.  I want actual RL's to underside of duct NOT elevation relative to the reference level.  We build in rl's not elevation from an arbitrary level.

Message 9 of 15
robert2JCCH
in reply to: Anonymous

Still not directly available through (expected) Revit tools, but do-able.

 

  1. Assuming your Duct's reference levels is not utilized for any other workflows or filters, you can just change the Reference Level to the 0 level.
  2. You can use Dynamo to retrieve this information and push it into a Shared Parameter which then becomes taggable.
  3. You can use the Spot Elevation tool attached to the underside of the Duct. This likely would also warrant a Dynamo workflow since manually clicking that many ducts individually sounds tedious.

These are all methods for design ductwork in Revit. I'm not informed enough on MEP fabrication workflows to know if a native option exists or if you still have to add functionality.

Message 10 of 15
twellins
in reply to: robert2JCCH

Thanks Robert,

1. Assigning the level to 0 is not allowed by the project execution plan.

2. We have the ability to do this now however given that workflow, things get missed. I.e something moves and doesn't get updated. I want a "silver bullet" solution.

3. Your absolutely right about tedious about spot elevations. We want to use RLs everywhere, (peno's, ducts. Trays, pipes, mechanical equipment t etc.) And have this data available in tags, schedules and all meta data available to readily query.
Message 11 of 15
RSomppi
in reply to: twellins


@twellins wrote:
1. Assigning the level to 0 is not allowed by the project execution plan.

If the PEP doesn't allow this, I would assume that it also doesn't allow elevations referencing this level.

 


@twellins wrote:
2. We have the ability to do this now however given that workflow, things get missed. I.e something moves and doesn't get updated. I want a "silver bullet" solution.

You will not find a silver bullet with Revit's current functionality unless you host everything from the required reverence level.

 


@twellins wrote:
3. Your absolutely right about tedious about spot elevations. We want to use RLs everywhere, (peno's, ducts. Trays, pipes, mechanical equipment t etc.) And have this data available in tags, schedules and all meta data available to readily query.

I have been doing Revit MEP for a decade and a half, both design and fabrication. I've never heard of such a thing and can see how it could cause coordination issues. Only certain items require this. Building levels are not arbitrary. They are a common reference used by all trades. I'm curious as to how you establish benchmarks for making measurements. Are you using the building levels or establishing your own?

Message 12 of 15
twellins
in reply to: Anonymous

@RSomppi 

 

Thanks for your response.  5 Years ago I would have agreed with most of what you said, however we’ve learned over time that RL’s are a much better and simpler way to install services accurately.  As shown in the example below, hydraulics and fire pipes have been utilizing RL’s for as long as I’ve been in the biz (over 25 years now).

 

twellins_0-1726836350460.png

 

 

If you allow me to give you a better and more detailed explanation, I would have to go back to the time we actually changed to RL’s.

 

On a certain site, we had a situation where our modellers were called in for a “please explain” on a situation where a drain was not fitting above one of our installed FCU’s.  We were looking at the model and everything was clear and coordinated.  I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember the dimensions exactly, however we were saying “But we are in at 2900?” and the Plumbers were saying “But we are in at 36.50??”.  In my mind I’m thinking “we aren’t even talking the same language??, and we are both members of the plumbers union??”  - We ended up baring the cost for the relocation for the FCU however in later inspection the slab was poured 50mm higher than the model.

 

Because we were measuring from a physical location and it moved, consequently our services moved up with it.   This is where our discovery of the use of RL’s began.

 

From the next project we started using RL’s as well. This was timely but also out of necessity as the BIM execution plan only mandated levels that were provided by the architect.  We also couldn’t have the element referenced from another level (like 0.000) as we suggested. So for example, we couldn’t provide a different level for a wet area set-down, a loading dock or other irregularities in the slab forming; which was very typical for our old CADDuct days.  This building is massive and iconic; in particular there were inconsistencies (particularly in the podium levels and carparks) where the only level we had would prove impossible without providing a swathe of sections.  Too many to be frank.

As discussed in my previous email, you cannot however get an RL without using a spot elevation which are time consuming compared to tags.  To combat this, we decided to tag our elements with the measurement  from the level BUT provide a list of RL’s on our Title block to say what that particular sheet was cut at.  Here is an example.

 

twellins_1-1726836350462.png

 

 

The bi-product of this meant that each sheet only had one level, regardless of the amount of steps in the slabs.  Because it was RL it didn’t actually matter.  The installer would simply add the level RL to the level of the duct to provide the actual RL. 

 

RL’s are provided everywhere on a job sites and are necessary for plumbers, formworkers, builders and multitudes of trades.  The below example shows the “+” height relative to the cut level, not the physical slab.

twellins_2-1726836350473.png

 

In many cases, like commercial buildings, they are EXACTLY the same (where flat slabs correspond with the FFL) – however it the slab doesn’t, it doesn’t matter.

 

In this crude example below you have a duct intersecting a ramp,  what level is the duct from structure and how do I measure it?  From the sides?,  From the middle?  I would definitely need to cut a section to demonstrate it.

twellins_3-1726836350474.png

 

RL – doesn’t matter.  As long as you are modelling in 3D and utilizing the coordination tools at your disposal to validate something is coordinated, you don’t have to spend countless hours drawing it.  Say you’re running a duct above stadium seating on a slope, how to do you measure it?  And from what perspective?

RL’s are provided by the architect, slabs are (well usually..) built and validated to these levels, Elevations work utilizing RL’s.

Here’s and example of structure using the Architects “Level” in basement one which is SSL where as lower ground is not.  (I have placed red on the drawing to maintain project anonymity).

 

twellins_4-1726836350478.png

 

 

I have had discussions with Autodesk about this to provide a solution for both.  Show the elevation from level and also provide us with the elevation from Survey point.  If we can get the survey point as a parameter, can provide a formulated tag that would be the (survey point + elevation) to give an RL that would greatly help ourselves and other trades who wish to utilize this methodology.

 

Sounds like you've been in the biz for a while too and I'm sure you've had the unfortunate issue of missing a step in a slab.  RL's, doesn't matter.

 

I've had people come and say "your saying, I have to get another RL measurement every time I drop a duct?"  I'm simply saying, "Do it once, then join the flanges together."

 

Other huge benefits is we used to go round in circles with structural updates on drawings we have already issued because a slab height changed; thus affecting our dimensions to the physical element.  RL, doesn't matter (you probably get my drift by now 😄 )  Structure can move and we stay in the same spot because we are measuring from RL and not a physical location.  If we need to move because of this change post construction, or more importantly it's built incorrectly, it's a valid reason for a variation; not a cost to us for us to fix.

 

Long winded explanation but this has proven extremely successful, accurate and drastically reduced modelling and detailing costs.  We are also "talking the same language" with builders and other trades.

 

We've even had some examples of site teams installing duct fabricated and installed without any detailing whatsoever  (do to a sudden unplanned removal of a crane).  This was done by utilising Dwfx files in BIM360/ACC and querying the metadata directly from the printed dwfx sheet hosted on the platform.  We simply gave our site team 1 number.  The RL level for what that whole sheet was based from.

Message 13 of 15
RSomppi
in reply to: twellins


@twellins wrote:

Long winded explanation


Very and to be honest I didn't read the whole thing as I'm not really interested that much. Obviously, you've found a niche where it is acceptable but, IME, this would only serve to induce errors in construction. How is the installer going to measure from Level 0? They would need to do the math which is an opportunity for mistakes to slip in. I'm not arguing with you, just saying that it wouldn't fly for a good portion of the industry and the fact that your PEP doesn't allow hosting to Level 0 backs this up. I don't see an easy way to make this work in your project. That silver bullet may be a unicorn. I would start trying out the solutions offered up here or use the elevations from the building levels.

Message 14 of 15
twellins
in reply to: Anonymous

Agreed @robert2JCCH put some very valid points down that we have utilised in the past to some success.  It was be much easier is Revit inately produced the elevation from level as well as elevation from survey point.  Everybody's a winner.

Message 15 of 15
robert2JCCH
in reply to: Anonymous

I believe there are Revit Ideas that follow this line of thought. The functionality would be good, and would also extend into other potential benefits (RL-based Filters for visibility control). This functionality would also need proper integration with project/survey/base point control. Plumbing/Civil also use sea level inverts in addition to RL inverts, so you'd have to extend the functionality to both choices.

 

But no, no silver bullet yet. Just mindfulness while working, unfortunately.

Can't find what you're looking for? Ask the community or share your knowledge.

Post to forums  

Forma Design Contest


Autodesk Design & Make Report