Setup: Flip Y axis also flips X axis

[marcus]

My machine:

Z- is "down"

X+ is moving along the long axis towards the back of the machine

Y+ is moving along the short axis towards the front.

Home is at Z0(=top) X0 Y0

In CAM->Setup, I it always either orients X, Y or Z wrong.

When I get Z and X correct and select "flip Y axis", it

* changes the origin point (known bug)

* ALSO flips the orientation of the X axis.

The same thing happens,when I click the arrow-points of the WCS to flip the orientation of one axis and one axis only.

With an ATC and homing switches as they are and using a different CAM for ages now (only starting out to evaluate Fusion360 for specific tasks that my current CAM can not handle well), changing the machine is not an option.

[acuturn]

first off, in preferences under the general tab make sure default modelling orientation is set to z up.

after this you just need to draw your cam sketches correctly orientated.

remember x is the red axis line and y is the green axis line. z is blue.

hope this helps a bit

[marcus]

"z up" is set.

The model was not designed in Fusion360. I'm just using it as a CAM. It's a part of a larger and more complex assembly that was done in another program,

No, this does not help.

The model is already correctly oriented.

It would however be machined mirrored because the Y axis of my CNC mill moves in the OPPOSITE direction and I can't get Fusion360 to flip that axis without affecting other (correctly oriented) axis too.

(Also, flipping Y coordinates in a postprocessor would be a receipt for desaster because Fusion360 would show mirrored toolpathes compared to what the machine later does.

That practically invites mistakes.)

[Steinwerks]

The arrows for the gnomon location all point in the positive direction, as in a Cartesian coordinate system. There is no changing it, and AFAIK no plans for the ability to do so as this crops up so rarely.

What is your machine exactly?

[marcus]

TL:DR: A very, very custom one-trick-pony.

It's a very heavily modified YOOCNC 6040Z+S80 with Purelogic PLCM E3 and B1 electronics, custom non-TTL CMos logic to allow 3D probing and inductive sensors with clean signal levels (such as precise A axis homing).

Fitted with an 27.500rpm ATC instead of the original 20Krpm 2.2KW spindle with RS485 modbus control.

A K11 100mm chuck on a 50:1 harmonic drive as a 4th axis with special mounting and alignment modifications to lower the axis into the bed and allow for larger diameter stock. (6-jaw 125mm not possible yet)

Alcohol based mist cooling for materials that melt easily.

Soon to be fitted with stronger closed loop steppers on the Z axis for faster direction changes.

Customized to do high-detail 3 and 4 axis work of organic shapes on round stock of machinable wax and POM-C for mold-making.

Usually with trapezoidal ball noses.

[matty.fuller]

This can be resolved by modifying the post processor in some cases... I use Biesse machines and I have the same issue with it being impossible to set a "correct" WCS in CAM.

For these routers Z+ is down and Y+ is towards the operator, but if I set that WCS all of the toolpaths try to machine it from below. so I set it pointing into space and invert the Z & Y axes in the post processor. Easy enough to do with a *-1 on the output of Y and Z, works fine for 3 axis but introduces some problems with tilted workplanes that can be tricky to resolve.

[marcus]

Hello,

as I wrote on "Wednesday in reply to: acuturn", I fear that inverting coordinates in a post-processor is a receipt for desaster

as coordinates and orientations seen in Fusion360 in simulations will not match with the actions on the actual machine.

It was already answered that this is a known issue of Fusion360 and that it will likely not be solved by Autodesk because too few customers have complained about it being a problem or issue for them.

Therefor we have put out evaluation of Fusion360 as a CAM platform on hold indefinately and will not use it in parallel to our existing CAM software.

It seemed to be a good complement for technical, solid parts where our existing software excels at organic, artistic meshes.

[matty.fuller]

Fair enough, really. In our case it hasn't really proven a problem, perhaps because the origin and WCS are identical for every single part - you're just loading material against a set of origin pins rather than clocking in the job using a G54.

The one case where it messes me up is doing the Euler transformations for tilted workplanes - if the new X axis is not horizontal the coordinates are totally screwed, and I haven't figured out a fix as yet. As long as I work around that constraint it doesn't miss a beat. Inverting Z and Y also works fine for simultaneous 5 axis.

[Anonymous]

Hello matty.fuler,

I am also working on Biesse and facing the same problem with Y and Z directions. Where did you flip them in post? I am using Acramatic btw.

[Anonymous]

Check out the "Set current view as" option to fix it.

[marcus]

How can "Set current view as" invert the positive vs. negative direction of one CNC axis but not others?

[Anonymous]

You can set your gnomon how ever you need it and use the "set current view as" option to set it to the top.

[marcus]

So... how to flip an Axis in the Gnomon? Rotating the coordinate system is NOT what is needed here.

[seth.madore]

You can't, and this isn't something likely to change. Fusion 360 uses the industry standard of the Cartesian Coordinate System, and, as mentioned above, there are certainly far too few users who actually need something different.

Question; can YOUR machine change? I've seen many retro-fit machines where negative is positive and the like. This can often be changed at the machine level, and it may be easier to change one machine than continue looking for CAM software that flips coordinate direction into a non-standard format

[marcus]

This one machine could be chanaged but then it would no longer work with the files of the regular, every-day CAM software (working with very details meshes from designers. Something Fusion360 can't do or is highly limited in. Using strategies that Fusion360 doesn't offer on meshes.) and things like tool-change and other macros need to be rewritten.

It's far easier to just not use Fusion360.

[seth.madore]

Ok, then Fusion isn't the solution for you then 😉

[marcus]

It would have been nice for technical parts.

Since postprocessors are scripts in an NP-complete langauge, this sounded like a very reasonable feature request

given it's low complexity.

[seth.madore]

Changing it in the software is not a trivial task by any stretch. Changing it in the Post Processor, however, IS an easy task.

[possm88]

I know nothing of coding, but I have to agree that this seems like a feature that should be obvious. The problem is there's a whole generation of people who became experts using fusion as a paid-only software, now complacent with all of its bizarre, unintuitive, and illogical idiosyncrasies, who will defend these things and dismiss others who bring them up. 

Fusion opened up to non-commercial users for free, which is great. But now there's a flood of people, like me, who are used to intuitive software standards, who are constantly perplexed by bizarre issues like this. Issues that cause us to sink hours, and even days, into figuring out something that shouldn't even be a problem in the first place. It's unbelievably frustrating.

The goal of opening up to non-commercial users is to take in more people who will become paying users. But tons of people give up because of these things. Or we're just dismissed when we bring them up, and treated as if these things aren't problematic. But they are. Fusion has been a chaotic nightmare of a program to navigate for me because of this stuff. I have no problem developing near-expert-level skillsets with other complex software on my own. But I have to spend days trying to sort out absurdly simple issues with fusion.

I spent half of yesterday designing something in fusion and the other half designing artwork for it in illustrator. After a dozen attempts to export an SVG that wouldn't load into fusion completely broken, I had to spend hours cleaning it up in fusion, fixing all of the double lines and weird glitches in the paths until 3am. I start at 8am today, and the toolpaths refuse to generate, it won't recognize the pocket, I redesign it several times, start from scratch several times and after trying every possible operation type, I find a  workaround that introduces all kinds of problems. But I throw my hands in the air and give up, content to just deal with it after 2 days of torture.

But nope! I set my machine up and get ready to finally export a program, only to realized that the x and y axes are wrong. Figure this is simple to just flip one axis. There's even a button for it... But it flips TWO axes, making it impossible to get a proper orientation. So now I have to take 10 different bodies, a sketch, and several components, and manually reorient and align them. 

So all of the developers and old timers who dismiss people like me can roll their eyes, but this is the kind of experience you're offering people by being complacent with these things. I always see the comment that these issues are too uncommon to address, but the entire problem is that this software is absolutely plagued by extremely specific and disparate issues that nobody can get an answer or solution for. 

I love fusion. When it works, it's incredible. But I spend more time fixing problems than I do being productive with it. Saying it's not for us, or the problem is with us, isn't right. Fusion has tons of problems that need addressed if you want to gain long-term users. Isn't that the goal? 

[seth.madore]

@possm88 I'm struggling to understand how others perceive that Fusion is incorrect (in this regard; WCS axis orientation). The Cartesian coordinate system isn't really a "suggestion" or "nice to have", but an industry standard and a mathematical principle. X positive is always right and Y positive is always at a right angle to that, rotated CCW 90 degrees. You can have X positive going to the left, but Y positive will now be pointed at you.