Structural Area Reinforcement: SLOPED Floor, Rebar is OUTSIDE the floor?

Structural Area Reinforcement: SLOPED Floor, Rebar is OUTSIDE the floor?

doni49
Mentor Mentor
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Structural Area Reinforcement: SLOPED Floor, Rebar is OUTSIDE the floor?

doni49
Mentor
Mentor

I have a sloped floor and I've placed a structural area reinforcement using it as the host. When I look at it in section view, the rebar stays horizontal instead of parallel to the floor --which causes the rebar to be almost completely OUTSIDE the floor.

Any ideas?

 

RevitStructuralAreaRein_RebarFloor.png



Don Ireland
Engineering Design Technician




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Message 2 of 12

doni49
Mentor
Mentor
Accepted solution

http://www.revitforum.org/structure-general-questions/29430-structural-area-reinforcement-sloped-flo...



Don Ireland
Engineering Design Technician




If a reply solves your issue, please remember to click on "Accept as Solution". This will help other users looking to solve a similar issue. Thank you.


Please do not send a PM asking for assistance. That's what the forums are for. This allows everyone to benefit from the question asked and the answers given.

Message 3 of 12

semi
Collaborator
Collaborator

Still not answered. I have a double sloped floor for a drive-in ramp and as you can only place 1 slope arrow or 1-sided sloped side, I'm unable to place any fabric sheet or structural area reinforcement in that situation.

The double sloped floor is perfectly modelled by the architect with a modified sub-element, but this can't be remodelled when the shape has to be reset.

 

Message 4 of 12

ranjithedachery84
Contributor
Contributor

Hi Doni,

I didn't get your solution for the Structural Area Reinforcement in sloped slab. Please rectify.

 

Thanks 

Ranjith

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Message 5 of 12

ovidiu_paunescu
Autodesk
Autodesk

Area reinforcement or fabric sheets don't currently support sloped floors.

 

One thing you can do for sloped or double sloped floors is to use free form rebar - surface or aligned distribution.



Ovidiu Paunescu, M.Sc. Str. Eng.

Sr. Product Owner | Autodesk Revit

Message 6 of 12

heinrich_wicomb
Contributor
Contributor

Have there been any further updates to Area reinforcement or fabric sheets in sloped floors specifically related to Area Placement?



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Message 7 of 12

ovidiu_paunescu
Autodesk
Autodesk

No changes at this time.

 

If you can, please add a post to Revit Ideas, so others could vote for it.



Ovidiu Paunescu, M.Sc. Str. Eng.

Sr. Product Owner | Autodesk Revit

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Message 8 of 12

a_kralkay
Advocate
Advocate

Can you not just talk to your dev team and inform them that the tool doesn't work properly? This thread was started in 2016... It's kinda unbelievable that this isn't fixed already.

 

If you modify the shape of slab at all, it completely ignores the rebar cover properties of the slab and you have rebar sticking out all over the place. This isn't a feature request. It's an obvious issue with the area reinforcement tool that needs to be fixed. We shouldn't need to vote on this to get it addressed.

Message 9 of 12

ovidiu_paunescu
Autodesk
Autodesk

Hi @a_kralkay 

 

Implementing the area reinforcement for sloping floors is complex, and I mentioned Revit Ideas because it helps us understand better the importance of this capability compared to other features we can work on.

Please check out our public roadmap for a glimpse into the capabilities we are working on 

https://blogs.autodesk.com/revit/roadmap/ 

 

I think area reinforcement in sloping floors is complex because, floors that slope by slope arrow can have uniform or varying thickness and floors where we edit sub-elements (to get sloping in more directions etc.)  can have very complex geometry. Of course area reinforcement applies to walls as well, which can slope and have varying thickness. And in all cases the bars in the area reinforcement are automatically cut by openings.

This transforms Area Reinforcement into a kind of free form rebar.

 

For your particular use cases is it enough to have the area reinforcement follow the floor only if it slopes by using the slope arrow? What is your expectation if the floor has a varying thickness? Do you also need this variation to happen for walls? What about fabric sheets?



Ovidiu Paunescu, M.Sc. Str. Eng.

Sr. Product Owner | Autodesk Revit

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Message 10 of 12

a_kralkay
Advocate
Advocate

I totally understand that there are complexities with it. And I don't think anyone expects it to just work perfectly in all situations. That being said, there are objective fundamental shortcomings with the tool. Shortcomings that anyone who knows anything about rebar reinforcement should immediately notice as lacking. If the dev team working on this needs help understanding the importance of this functionality, respectfully, you need some more expertise on that team. And ideally before the tool is released, not after.

 

Getting feedback from the community is great for some more advanced functionality. But we shouldn't have to essentially start a petition and convince others that tools like this should simply work better from the start. Things like having the clear cover settings be ignored by something simple like adding a slope should never happen. Even in slabs/walls with varying thickness, having the rebar follow the minimum clear cover parameters of the slab as a default shouldn't even be a question.

 

To answer your questions;

 

Yes, most of the time the slab, especially exterior slabs, you only need a simple slope via a slope arrow. Currently the rebar will follow that slope but ignores the clear cover at the head and tail ends of the slope arrow. On a diagonal slope, all perimeter clear cover settings are ignored.  I can't think of any reason I would want that to happen, and the only solution is to modify the boundary of the area reinforcement which causes additional lines on your plans (unless you hide the boundary).

 

For varying thickness, or even consistent thickness, a minimum clear cover should always be maintained. If I need the rebar to do something more complex, I can use other tools such as free-form to accomplish this.

- In a simple example of a flat slab with a sub-element modified slope at one edge, or slope to middle (floor drain), the rebar should follow the clear cover settings as best as possible. The top layer and bottom should act somewhat independently where the top bars should simply maintain a clear cover and match the shape of the slab (constraints permitting) and the bottom stays flat. Even just maintaining the clear cover as if it wasn't shape modified at all would be better. Right now when you have this type of shape modified slab the clear cover settings are completely ignored on all faces and you need to manually adjust "additional cover offset" as well as the area boundary.

 

Walls should work the same way. There may be additional functionality that would be nice for walls but the idea board is a perfect place for things like that.

 

Fabric sheets I honestly don't use much at all, so I'm probably not the best person to comment on that. But like i mentioned previously, following clear cover settings as a minimum should always be the default.

 

Openings and voids also don't work well currently. If anything cuts into the surface of the slab, even by 1mm, the rebar acts like the object is cutting completely through and cuts both the top and bottom bars at that point. Again, this is where the top and bottom layers should act independently (as they would like you are actually laying the rebar). And there often is no need to cut anything until the void cuts deep enough to interfere with the rebar. Even an override to remove the cuts in the rebar would help here.

Message 11 of 12

semi
Collaborator
Collaborator

Very well said!

Every time I have a parking underneath a building (appartment) I have to clearly explain to every client we cant model the fabric wire of the sloped slab to the parking area simply because the software is not able to.

Do you know how much our client (who pays us) cares about this issue? None! He wants accurate results and for every client 3D nowadays means accuracy and perfect models.

Software is still a tool, not a target and no one says what software to use...

This is as always very unprofessional towards our clients. 

Imagine you asking a freelancer to work something out and he says to you: "I can't, I lack the knowledge to acquire that."

What would you do as a client next time? Thats right, you move on to another designer with hopefully the correct and accurate software.

Message 12 of 12

benjamin.downeyNVD3F
Participant
Participant
I totally agree, a feeble excuse from Autodesk regarding the complete lack of any meaning development of existing and new tools for the structural engineering use of REVIT. If we able to select the nodes of a fabric area of reinforcement it could be manipluted similar to the slab, really is should follow the slab geometry when the slab shape is altered, and understand there will be limitations with this, such as if the slab is twisted with varying levels, understandably it would n't in that sitaution, however it should be able to cope with a basic sloped slab.