Pipe Fitting Rotation

[lee.imbimbo86EM4]

So I've looked through the other posts on this subject matter and they don't seem to deal with the issue I'm wrestling with.  But basically what I'm trying to figure out is how I can more freely rotate pipe fittings and the modelling of them seems to always want to think of them on a flat plane.

I have several instances of this, but I'll give a real basic example.  I have a Sanitary Sewer line sloped at 1/4" per foot.  in that Line I'm added a Long Sweep Wye connector.  In this case I'm referring to the out of the box Revit Family, but I've tried downloading other manufacturer's fittings to no avail.

The issue here is that it sloped the fitting along the main pipe, but won't then subsequently let me rotate the fitting to turn the sweep leg of that wye up a bit to allow for the pipe coming in at the perpendicular to simply turn down into it with a 22.5 or a 45 degree elbow.  Instead it basically acts like the only angle I could want the pipe fitting rotated to is some orthogonal on (increments of 90degrees) off the plane of the main run of pipe.

This is something that can definitely be done in the field, yet in Revit it acts like you're breaking all the rules.  I feel like this is a relatively simple thing, but I spent most of the afternoon googling it and can't seem to find an answer.  I have a hard time believing that I'm the first one to come across it.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[RobDraw]

I think you are right in that is a simple thing to do.

How are you trying to rotate the fitting?

[iainsavage]

Is it actually a Wye (i.e. part type in the family is set to Wye), or is it a Tee used as a wye?

Tees can be automatically placed via the routing preferences, Wyes need to be manually placed.

If its a tee then you should be able to draw a pipe coming away from the main with the slope set to Up and the tee will rotate to match the pipe slope.

Similarly if you draw a branch into the main with the slope Down, or with the Change Slope option rather than Add Vertical, then the tee will rotate to match the pipe slope.

If its a wye though, which needs to be manually placed, then you would need to place the fitting then cut a section through the main pipe looking along the pipe axis and you should be able to select the fitting and rotate it to any angle. To get the orientation of the section correct cut a section across the main, cut a second section along the main, in the long section use the align tool to align the cross section to the pipe centreline, then use the rotate tool to rotate 90 degrees. In the cross section you should now be looking straight along the pipe axis.

[lee.imbimbo86EM4]

@RobDraw and @iainsavage I've done what you suggest.  I independently place the fitting on the sloped line, then cut the section, such that it is aligned and orientated to the cross section of the line.  But when I try and rotate the fitting it never rotates.  It stays fixed in the orthogonal orientation (i.e 0, 90, 180, 270 degrees).  It technically won't rotate at all, unless I use the little blue rotational symbol provided in the fixture, which again limits me to 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees.

[RobDraw]

How are you trying to rotate it, the rotate command? Are you assigning a center point that is appropriate for the desired rotation?

[lee.imbimbo86EM4]

@RobDraw it will only let me rotate it via the little blue rotation controls that appear when you select the fitting, which limits me to rotating it in a strict 90degree.  If I select the Rotate command off the modify menu, then place the center at the center of the pipe axis (i.e. the axis we'd be rotating around), it doesn't rotate the fitting at all.

One that that is kind of a halfway work-around, but only sort of functions is to open the fixture family and turn on Work-Plane based, and then draw a reference plane that can somewhat force the issue.  It only works in limited fashion, and doesn't really solve the problem.  It is more of a brute force method with limited functionality.  Additionally, this method doesn't allow for other adjustments, so only really works if this fitting won't be changing as the design takes form.

Things I have done to try and fix the problem, but to no avail, include:

• Open the family and turn off "always vertical"
• Select each pipe fitting connector in the family and switch them from fitting to global and check mark "Allow Slope Adjustments."
• Turn on "Work-Plane Based" within the family and brute force the fitting along a reference plane that is one the axis I want it on. 
• Open the family to see if the little blue rotation controls can be changes by what degree they allow for.  but this appears to be hard-coded in at 90degree increments, and doesn't allow the user to make modifications.
• Rotate by placing the Section cut at the cross-section angle and rotate based on the center of the pipe.
• Draw all the pipes initially flat (ie no slope), and then try and slope them (this not only didn't work, it locked the pipes and wouldn't allow for the slope to be applied).
• download other manufacturer's revit families (Lasco had a bunch) but they presented the same problem.

Short of recreating the fittings myself I'm at a loss.

[iainsavage]

1. Have you got rotational snaps enabled? What are they set to?

2. The wye fitting in my image is the standard (metric) pvc schedule 40 fitting from the Autodesk library.

What family are you using? Could you upload it please?

See video attached.

[iainsavage]

Settings in the autodesk family:

[lee.imbimbo86EM4]

@iainsavage in this case I'm just trying to get the base Revit 2023 PVC DWV fittings to work.  I could upload them, but I'm having the same issue with double bends and wyes.  Elbows seem to have no problem freely rotate to a degree.  Almost all the fittings need you to go into their families and select that I need to allow slope adjustments to the fitting connectors because otherwise minor angle discrepancies cause every pipe to just not work.

When I checked my snap menu, the only difference between mine and yours is that mine has "Snap to Remote Objects." Checked, and I'm in imperial and you're in metric.

[lee.imbimbo86EM4]

@iainsavage  I have no idea why it is working for you.  I have definitely turned off "Always Vertical" in the fitting family, and when I follow the exact same rotate procedure you are doing the fitting literally does nothing.  It stays fixed with the fitting in an orientation that is fixed to 90degrees on the plane.  And before you ask, yes I have checked to make sure that the "copy" button is unselected.

It's maddening I tell you, maddening.

[iainsavage]

I've tried it with imperial versions using these two wye fittings:

Both rotate the way that I described earlier.

Double branches on sloped pipe is a different problem because the branches don't rotate independently, the whole fitting will rotate, so you can't have both branches sloping down into the main unless you customise a fitting to allow that.

Its also (in UK anyway) usually considered bad practice to use double branches on horizontal pipe due to crossflow risk from one branch to the other so personally I only use these fittings on vertical pipes.

Allow slope adjustments does not cause the branches to slope it only allows the pipe to enter into the fitting on a slight skew rather than in the plane of the fitting. That is legitimate for some real world fitting types especially ring-seal fittings. e.g. there is a 2 degree skew between pipe and fitting in the image below

Please upload one of the fittings that is causing you the problem.

[lee.imbimbo86EM4]

Here are a couple of the fittings that I have trouble with.  I'll stop at three, but it seems to be pretty consist.  As a clarification the rotation function does seem to work in Plan view.  For example, if I have these fittings on a vertical pipe they freely rotate.

The lack of rotation seems to be limited to when I've placed it on a "horizontal" pipe.  As a further point, I've played with it both on a sloped and non-sloped pipe.  But for whatever reason on the horizontal pipe, even without a slope applied to it, I can't seem to freely rotate the fitting.  If I try and rotate the fitting using the method you showed in your recording it basically does absolutely nothing.  The only function I'm afforded is the ability to click the like rotation symbols that appear when I select the fitting, but that limits me to the 90degree rotations (i.e. 0, 90, 180, & 270).

All of these fittings I uploaded are straight out of the standard DWV fittings that come with Revit 2023.  Found in this folder:  C:\ProgramData\Autodesk\RVT 2023\Libraries\English-Imperial\Pipe\Fittings\PVC\Sch 40\Socket-Type\DWV

[iainsavage]

Wye combination with 8th bend works for me:

This is also a Tee part so if you include it in the routing preferences it will auto place and take on the slope of the branch:

The other wye which you uploaded is the same one that I used earlier (it is part type Wye so needs to be placed manually).

Double bend rotates for me, but as I said earlier you will not get the two branches to rotate independently, the whole fitting rotates:

[jeremy.colombe]

Great thread.

I have found when the sanitary fittings "turn" the wrong way it is usually a slight problem with sloping. Off by not enough to cause it the break but too much to be accommodated by slope adjustment.