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Overhaul Keynotes to Use a Database, Not a Text File

Overhaul Keynotes to Use a Database, Not a Text File

It pains me to say it but AutoCAD has a leg up on Revit when it comes to keynotes.

 

In Revit, the tab-delimited text file just does not cut it.  It is too cumbersome to edit, unsearchable from within Revit, lacks organization in the keynote legend...

 

AutoCAD uses a proper database and its keynote legends are beautifully organized by division and section.  The database is also searchable when placing a keynote.

 

I think Revit should mimic AutoCADs keynote system and then use its current keynote system to replace the note block.  Then people could create a tab-delimited file to house all of their sheet notes (though this needs to be editable within Revit) with the ability to filter by sheet (which is in high demand) and they could use the new awesome keynote database for their keynotes.

18 Comentarios
dgorsman
Consultant

AutoCAD doesn't have a database, or keynotes - perhaps you're referring to the ACA vertical?  Best to be specific.

 

Databases are more efficient for data management but there are some tradeoffs.  File-based databases such as MS Access are sensitive to numbers of simultaneous users.  Although SQL Server is better suited, it requires additional investment in management (as does Access, although not as much) and server-side architecture.  Not everyone wants to go to that level of work.

 

Most products are also sensitive to release versions.  Dredging up an old example, a *lot* of users used JET to connect to MS Access databases.  However JET is only 32-bit, so when they switched to 64-bit programs they were left high-and-dry until the ACCDB Access driver was made available.  Even then there were problems as many corporations were using 32-bit MS Office which didn't permit a side-by-side install of the 64-bit Access driver.  So don't expect a no-pain solution - you're trading one set of problems for another.

TimGrissom
Enthusiast

Yes, sorry, I was referring to AutoCAD Architecture.  It uses a .mdb file for its "reference keynotes."

Anonymous
No aplicable

I've been on the Keynote Manager train since 2013. Check it out:

 

http://revolutiondesign.biz/keynotemanager/KMfeatures.html

 

Low cost, cloud access, and the guy Steve in Colorado has been updating this thing couple times a year since he first whipped it out. Will change your Keynoting life for Melania. I mean, Millenia.

 

You'll soon forget there are even .txt files at the heart of any of this.

TimGrissom
Enthusiast

Yeah, I know.  I just wish some of those features were built into Revit.  I hate asking my boss to pay for more add-ons after he is already spending insane amounts of money to get Revit in the first place.

 

I don't think Keynote Manager fixes the organizational issues in the keynote legend either.  Like being able to group by division and section.  And does it make it so you can search when placing a keynote?

Anonymous
No aplicable

Agree that the convenience of having a keynoting workflow built into Revit as an out-of-the-box feature would be nice to have, given the price tag for (what used to be licenses) subscription costs for the app itself. Then again, my perspective is from an Architect who happens to desire the best digital tools at my disposal. From the perspective of small business owners like Steve Faust (creator of Keynote Manager) it was a great business opportunity to fill a market gap. Plus, I think he's an Architect himself so he was going about coding thinking as such.

 

The boss issue, in my opinion, is a personality/cultural issue and not technical, in nature. You mention reluctance to propose solutions based on a preconceived, negative backlash from a superior who may have limited capability or competence to invest in employees and the technology they depend on. With my limited knowledge and brain, I don't know whether it's you more you being shy or an authority figure who's created a culture where new ideas and disruptions are encouraged vs discouraged.

 

Agree that KM+ does not affect directly or indirectly the keynote legend. Keynote legends are odd beings in and of themselves. Better to think about those as a scheduling entity and attack it the limited way that allows. Just checked my keynote legend sitting here and I'm reminded that you are stuck with two parameters: Key Value, and Keynote Text. So that's that.

 

On searching functions in KM+, those are there. Along with a ton of other user interface perks that blow a .txt file out of the water. Gonna try to upload a screen snippet here of what I see. Hope this works:

 

Capture.PNG

 

 

 

Notice it's a dock that can sit off to the side on another monitor. And all those buttons you see do different things. It's also drag and drop with any keynote anywhere. Pretty clean, all things considered. It has allowed me to continue to develop a firm-wide keynote database that constantly grows because every project is plugged into the same keynote database (KM Keynote "project" in its terms) so when people add new stuff, it's sitting there for future people to use in future projects. Rinse. Repeat. Waste less lives.

 

- Ace

 

 

 

 

 

Anonymous
No aplicable

Using a database would be overkill in my opinion. Databases are best suited to dealing with large amounts of data. I've suggested it elsewhere already, but I might as well add to this discussion by saying it again here: I think that all text configuration files that are used by Revit should be replaced with JSON format. It's a "text" based format but it is not free-form. It is highly structured, through its syntax, yet extremely flexible because it doesn't force you to use a particular schema. JSON is perfect to storing and transmitting structured data.

 

I invite you to take a peek at JSON here (I am not affiliated with this site, just found it to be a good primer for beginners)

 

cheers,

-tomek

 

 

Anonymous
No aplicable

Keynotes now has another issue... when using it with C4R / BIM360. Scenario... Multi-office (same company), same discipline working in the same model. Where does the keynote file reside if each user's office server is different? Allow access to every server to every user in your company? Give permissions to users as needed to other office servers. I.T. would love both those ideas! 

 

Another product (C4R/BIM360) rolled out by Autodesk not fully thought out. Please incorporate the keynote data in the model so if the model is hosted on BIM360 the keynotes are updated by any user in that model. Other wise it is back to dumb keynotes and texts for BIM360 users. Granted this does not affect all BIM360 users, most likey only affects Autodesk's accounts that would acutally use two users from the same discipline from two office locations.

 

 

TimGrissom
Enthusiast

Interesting point, Jose.  I have not used C4R so I haven't experienced this problem, can you host the keynote file on A360 with the model?

 

I do like the idea of the keynote database being hosted in the model.  I suppose you would still have an external master keynote file that Revit copies into the project upon creation.

Anonymous
No aplicable

Further to my earlier point, I think that there should be multiple keynotes files. Just like we can create many files now, but one should be attached to the template and others should be attachable to the given project. It's only a few bytes of text data so it's not like it's going to blow the file size up.

 

Anonymous
No aplicable
You can place the file on the cloud but you can't path to it. It is not dynamic and becomes a static file. You would then have to download it and replace a file locally that you are pathed to when someone else changes it. They would have to do the same. Essentially BIM360 become an expensive google drive site for your keynote.txt files.
Anonymous
No aplicable

@Anonymous What I mean was that even though the keynotes files is just text, it should be embedded into the Revit template and project. This way it's always available and up to date. Revit should provide means for editing keynotes in such a way that the file stays consistent in a multi-user environment. This is not always trivial as what do you do when two users edit the file at the same time in the same place? Whose edits take precedence? You can use "last saved" method or you could flag a conflict and let the users resolve it themselves as they presumably have the knowledge of which edit should take precedence. These problems are well understood and solved my many revision control systems that are use in the software industry (subversion, git, mercurial, etc).

 

 

Anonymous
No aplicable

Jose - I think you're doing well at understanding and listing the problems, which means finding solutions is a good next step. Here's my contribution to the solutions step after having seen the problems which you now mention years ago...

 

Reading back to my earlier post where I mentioned the Keynote Manager+ as the app that's been my solution to Revit's keynote deficiency, I failed to mention that KM+ now has a feature where the keynote database (.txt file) is stored in a central place (cloud) via Amazon's servers. This means that once you buy KM+ cloud licenses and you create a KM+ "project", the account admin can distribute permissions amongst all the users on the company's cloud (because the KM+ cloud setup assumes a company essentially having a cloud to itself) so that employees with internet can be anywhere in the world and operate out of the same keynote file.

 

Even works with C4R licenses. I know because every Revit user at my firm has C4R capabilities and each has a cloud subscription to KM+. They live with both, daily. I can login to a model if I travel and view, use, and edit the same keynotes everyone else on the team is using.

 

Also, and one of the best features of all, is the ability to have the entire team of worker bees creating, organizing or editing a keynote database and have that work continue to be there for future projects. I've done this through my use of a single KM+ "project" throughout all projects. Don't think that the app author intended it to work that way, hence him calling a single cloud-based keynote file a "KM+ project" but it works as I've described, regardless. I have everyone on my team login to, open and constantly add to a KM+ project called "Company X Keynote Master Project". Every C4R shared Revit file, now and in the future, will point to this KM+ project aka cloud-hosted keynote database. Because my team knows the naming and organizing standards I've developed over the past 4 years, what I have now is a beast of a database of terms. Don't have a keynote for 3/4" GWB? Add it. It will always be there for everyone for all time. Every project we do I can feel myself saving time. Feels great. 

 

Must sound like I have stock in the KM+ product by now but rest assured, I'm just an idiot consumer like anyone. There might even be another developer who can kick their ass in terms of features. Don't know. Haven't researched intensely in a few years.

 

So here's a recommendation from being where you were in 2014. Find a cloud-based app and service, purchase licenses, download the app, setup a keynote cloud and then get your life back. You don't even have to use Revolution Design's (KM+ author) app but you do need to get into a cloud-based keynote management workflow. Otherwise, have fun with text boxes :cara_con_una_leve_sonrisa:

 

Best of luck.

Anonymous
No aplicable

@Anonymous Thanks for the heads up ... I have been a user of keynote manager for years. Was blind to the cloud option. Did not put 2 and 2 together until reading your post. To @Anonymous this should just part of revit to begin with.

 

I think I will revisit the keynote manager cloud option.

 

 

Anonymous
No aplicable

I've changed my mind on the issue of using a database. I now thing that Revit should use a database and provide built-in tools for manipulation of keynotes, sharing them and synchronizing them in a multi-user environment.

 

I changed my mind after I investigated how Vectorworks deals with keynotes. Pretty much everyone else does it better than Revit.  COME ON Autodesk, you've had years to address this. You're now past the point of just providing some basic functionality from 10 years ago. You now have to look towards the future and give us something even better and longer lasting. A flexible tool that is powerful to implement a variety of user-customised workflows when it comes to keynoting. If you decide to go ahead and give us some love, then please don't limit us to two fields: key and note. We should be able to add more fields, arrange them how we see fit, have better support for text alignment, note alignment, leader placement. The whole works!

Anonymous
No aplicable

Most definitely should be editable from inside Revit. Autodesk revit please fix.

smcgrady
Explorer

There is a new Keynote Manager, Assigner, Editor, Zoom to Keynote and more in VisiSpecs.  The files are managed in a database Cloud Server with user permissions for who can edit and who can just assign.  Since it is integrated with your project specs, there is automation and coordination with alerts and you can easily see which keynotes are assigned to Elements, Materials, and/or User Placed keynotes... as well as keynotes that have not yet been assigned or placed which is another great coordination tool.

 

Check it out at www.chalklineinc.com and email info@chalklineinc.com to see the demos.  Free Trials as well!

Seamus McGrady (yes, I am with Chalkline :cara_con_una_leve_sonrisa: )

Agree that keynotes should be in a database, but suggest that it is THE database, i.e. the Revit file. Why do Autodesk keep putting data out in the wild? Revit's database structure is quite capable of handling keynotes, and this would solve problems with Revit keynote files on OneDrive, Revit Server, and BIM360, all of which have variable paths per user and a limited ability to store text files alongside the Revit BIM database.

sjackolaAUTOD
Explorer

So Autodesk, how close are we to having keynotes in the database of Revit? This is an awesome program, but keynote legends are a critical aspect of construction documents. We're dealing with them continually, alongside the beautiful  3-D, element-tracking capabilities that Revit offers. I'm reading everybody's comments and trying to figure out the fastest way forward in creating a legend. It appears to still be laborious and I can't find the delimited text file in the computer...

Signed,

Losing My Mind

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