Make ceiling grids actual grids and not part of the material

[Anonymous]

In virtually every project we do we are demanded to deliver IFC files for cross-disciplinary coordination. IFC is also used more and more for actual construction on site.

Today the ceiling grid is defined through the applied material. This is extremely limiting as soon as we need to take our models outside Revit, since the material pattern isn’t exported. Every ceiling exports as a flat surface, without grid. This makes it impossible to do cross-disciplinary coordination for ceilings and IFC cannot be used on site for determining the ceiling grid placement.

It is also very limiting within Revit as the ceiling grid isn’t visible in section, nor is it possible to schedule/count the number of tiles in each ceiling surface.

The ceiling tool needs to be reworked!

• The grid and the material needs to be separated.
• The grid needs to be visible in section in Revit.
• The grid needs to export to IFC.
• It should also be possible to schedule tiles, to get the amounts per surface and the sizes (how many are full size and how many are cropped) in Revit.

[Pattycake_Kyle]

Curious if other users have this issue too - Wondering if this is this a Nordic country specific thing you've run into? I'm in NYC and the request for IFC models is fairly rare, we still have consultants preferring CAD.

Does the sloped Roof glazing tool essentially do what you want? So it seems like this would be a stripped down sloped glazing tool that becomes a ceiling sloped glazing (the ceiling then gets a drop down similar).

[Anonymous]

@Pattycake_Kyle 

Any openBIM project would need to deliver IFC files. But maybe that's not very common in the US yet?

We hardly ever deal with 2D dwg files any more. Everyone models in 3D and exports to IFC. If other consultants also use Revit we link their Revit files directly. Everything else is IFC links.

By sloped roof glazing tool, do you mean the Curtain System tool? That tool only works with a mass. I need to be able to create my ceilings without having to create mass objects first. And I also need my objects to export as ceilings. I know you can't convert walls to other categories. I think it's the same with curtain systems.

[Anonymous]

I've had to export IFC files along with my model and DWG sheets as part of the submittal package.  I never bothered to open the IFC file to see what was there though and nobody ever asked about it on the client side.

[MichaelRuehr]

I don't think that is a Revit issue

It's one of the annoying shortcomings of IFC

There is currently no representation of hatches, material and annotation in Open BIM (IFC)

this makes coordination between architects and Interior designers for instance very difficult

We resort to DWG plus IFC. We have the same issues with Archicad so solving it in Revit won't cut it

IFC needs to be fixed

[Anonymous]

@Anonymous I'm not asking for Autodesk to export the material to IFC. I'm asking them to remove the grid pattern from the material and make the grids a separate thing. Just like Curtain Walls. The grids need to export but they also need to be visible in section inside Revit. If ceilings were more like curtain walls we would also have the possibility to schedule the ceiling tiles and swap between types of tiles within the same ceiling.

[Evan.S.Hall]

This could also be a big help for anybody trying to place ceiling hosted elements (such as air terminals and light fixtures) aligned to the ceiling grids in Dynamo. As it is right now, I only know of two ways to interact with the ceiling grids in Dynamo. One way is to attempt to re-create the algorithm that generates the surface pattern in Revit within the context of Dynamo. The other way is to export a DWG from Revit (which converts the grids to lines in AutoCAD), then import that DWG back into Revit and use the DWG lines in Dynamo.

If the grids were to become an actual "grid" in Revit, then we might not have to go through all those complicated shenanigans to align elements to ceilings in Dynamo.

[dplumb_BWBR]

Wouldn't just allowing the Curtain Wall tool to be horizontal work for this?

At least if the ceiling is flat...

[MichaelRuehr]

Yes, a universal Curtain wall that can be vertical and horizontal and can be assigned to different categories is a long-standing request. Another thought would be being able to use the Material Hatch Grit as Parts divider.

But Curtain Wall (or call it Universal Host Grid) would solve many other issues as well.

[truevis.com]

Horizontal Curtain Wall is already in Revit. It's called Sloped Glazing. 

It can be used to model ceiling grids, just its Category is Roofs.

[MikaLei]

Sloped Glazing is also what I would recommend at the moment, it works like CW but for the roofs. 

Of course could be great if ceilings having same option, just wonder why it is not there already. Because roof has normal roof tool and also sloped glazing.

[waly36ARJ]

I used Parts to solve  this issue

[navashahin]

Ceiling grids are used constantly for better coordination between different disciplines such architectural and electrical, electrical and mechanical and so on. At the moment, ceiling grids are only available as surface pattern which is not exported to IFC correctly. IFC is the most common and popular open format of file that's exchanged in different projects for model coordination and clash detections. 

Ceiling grids will be more actually practical and useful if they are either 3d geometries or grids, or even allowing ceilings to be divided into parts according to ceiling grid can be helpful, too.

Not being able to export and show ceiling grids correctly in IFCs cause architects and engineer more trouble, extra hours and workaround to keep track of changes and clashes. 

 

 

 

[Yien_Chao]

not a bad idea, but that would add a substantial amount of geometries in the project. What if you adding only 3d grid where is required for your needs? 

[MichaelWarwick7522]

"3D" grid could simply be model lines in the surface pattern (rather than the current detail lines).

[wr.marshall]

Though would be a nice to have, I don't feel this would be a good idea. Along the same train of thought one could say have every brick as it's own 3D object, have every roof tile or floor tile as it's own object... Especially in large projects such as a shopping mall or large commercial sky scraper this would require a lot of memory and computing power. Already in large projects like I've mentioned people are complaining about Revit being slow. A search through this forum and other external forums like augi are littered with such a type of statements requesting Autodesk to speed up Revit.

On a side not there are methodologies to have perform action that would result in 3D geometry for an object such as a ceiling grid. Have a look at this video regarding roof tiles, you may be able to apply the principals to a ceiling grid.

Create a complete roof with tiles in Revit - YouTube

[Joey_JM]

I think this is a brilliant idea and I'm sure it's been requested many times before.

@MichaelWarwick7522, I don't think 3d model lines will be sufficient as they do not export to IFC as per the OP's request.

@wr.marshall, I see your point, but I don't think this is really comparable to bricks or tiles. Ceiling tiles are generally larger and the gridlines represent much more than just grout/mortar joints but rather an entire support system with metal T-profiles and suspended rods, clips etc.. all of which need to be coordinated with ductwork, cable trays, pipes, lights, vents etc. It needs to be apparent in the 3d geometry especially if members of the design team do not use Revit and cannot see the surface pattern without underlaying the 2d cad plans.

It would also be hugely beneficial to have the grid export to IFC for automatic clash detection in Solibri or Navisworks.

Not sure what the best method is but something that is actual geometry showing the panellisation, similar to how a curtain wall/system gets exported. 

[MOR-ConorMacken]

It should work similar to how curtain walls work with walls.

[kimbD79KU]

As the architect on Revit projects I think it is fine the way it is and no I don't do IFC exports.  My question is how critical is this for IFC.

We typically show electrical where we want the lights.  The problem is mechanical just puts stuff "wherever" and it does not seem that their supply / returns adjust if we need to move the grid.  Not being a mech engineer and using their tools, is't there a way for them to align and pin supply diffusers to the grid?  

[Joey_JM]

I still cannot see why this would not be desirable.

IFC is heavily used in many countries (especially in Europe) and many MEP consultants do not use Revit. Without which I don't see how they can efficiently and accurately align equipment to the grid without also referencing in DWG plans, which partially defeats the purpose of having a model for coordination.

By the way, there is a popular idea from 2019 that has over 200 votes and is almost identical to this.  @navashahin I would suggest always to do a quick search before posting a new idea as it might have the effect of watering-down any previous idea.

@kimberly_fuhrman-jones, can this be merged into the previous post, below?

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/make-ceiling-grids-actual-grids-and-not-part-of-the-mater...

[robert2JCCH]

To add to the original post, the nature of Ceiling Grids being surface-specific hatch patterns means that the top and bottom grids will only match if the modeller goes through the process of aligning the two surface patterns. This opens up the potential for miscoordination between consultants. This issue goes away if the grid was a modelled, independent element.

@kimbD79KU Air Terminals can be currently be ceiling-hosted, which will correct for elevation changes that occur to the ceiling. Depending on the tightness of the duct layout, it isn't always advantageous for air terminals to auto-correct horizontally to the grid, as that can result in the branch ductwork disconnecting. Those disconnects need to be resolved (as in, deletion of the offending elements) before the mechanical modeller can open their Revit model, which is currently more work to correct than inspection of the model for ceiling correctness and manual adjustment of ductwork based on the ceiling changes.

I'll also note that changes in the dimensions of a ceiling element can sometimes disrupt the physical position of a ceiling-hosted element in strange and unintuitive ways (I've had terminals get thrown outside the building before from geometry changes to a cloud ceiling), so some consultants opt for non-hosted air terminals to avoid duct breaks, taking the responsibility to manually correct terminal heights after ceilings are modified.