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Better Functionality for Legends!!

Better Functionality for Legends!!

1.  Ability to Tag Legend Components

2.  Ability to rotate Legend Components

3.  Option for "Floor Plan View" for Floors, Ceilings, etc.

4. Ability to Override Graphics, apply Filters, etc to Legend Components

 

Work arounds for these issues are too many, and leave too much room for error.  A legend should be representative of the items in your model.  It should have as much functionality as your floor plans do because it is meant to be a visual guide of the items in said floor plan.  MUST HAVE FULL FUNCTIONALITY!

120 Comments
atis.sed
Advocate

@wr.marshall look at the video https://youtu.be/dkiZE4U0jFw?t=794 at 13:14 and 20:58. As we can see from his response- ''yeah it's  a big part or Revit that we haven't looked into for a while'' 😄 Do you think Harald Brumm  is aware of this Revit Idea Board or Revit Forum? 

@atis.sed, I think that comment sums up the answer to every question Harlan Brumm answered. I see he doesn't have an @ link here so presumably hasn't logged in to the ideas board ever. If a building leaks it can never in my opinion be considered good architecture, if you can't get the basics right then flashy stuff is just pearls on a pig. Revit can't do basics necessary for communication of design intent to construction, like text and legends.

kimberly.fuhrman
Autodesk

All, please know that we are reading every comment, and while I know it is frustrating that this particular Idea has not been implemented, also know that we (including Harlan) are aware of this and the other 9,000 requests for improvements to the software. I would be happy to take this conversation offline and set up a meeting with Harlan and other product team members if you think it would help. Please feel free to reach out to me to discuss. kimberly.fuhrman@autodesk.com

 

Have a great day!

Kimberly

Lars_Jeppesen
Enthusiast

Hi Kimberly,

 

Thanks for responding. 

 

However as a user (architectural), documentation and streamlining worksflows using Revit's 'potential' is still well short of where it should be, after almost two decades of 'hotfixes'.

 

As mentioned by others, the 'documentation' portion is THE most important element for producing usable information for construction etc.  The pretty stuff is also very useful and of great benefit, however it's not fundamentally what Autodesk should complete first as part of their to-do list.

 

As has been the case for multiple versions, the 'I' in BIM has fallen well short of the £££'s that we have all been paying (a cost that continues to increase annually well above standard CPI rates).

AB_TX
Participant

@kimberly.fuhrman Thank you for your response.

It's totally understandable how Autodesk is trying to improve the software with respect to user needs but I don't think this issue is comparable with many other requests. Legends are obvious broken part of the software. I think Autodesk needs more professional approach in selecting the future improvements. Unfortunately not all the of the professional people in the industry have time or chance to get involved in having these conversations online on the other hand not all these 9000 requests are made by the people who are experience enough in the software. There are some good improvements on Revit public roadmap but none of them are not as necessary as this one. 

mhiserZFHXS
Advisor

I have no doubt that the actual development teams work incredibly hard on the new features that are provided to us. I think the issues stated above are spot on, but those criticisms need to be given to those at the top of Autodesk. There is no reason the development team shouldn't be massively increased to coincide with the increase in costs AND the forced subscription model. I'm sure increased legend functionality is not as simple as some make it seem, but Autodesk needs to make it a priority, and if that means shifting their massive increase in revenue toward more staffing instead of their profits, then they need to do it.

 

There may not be an immediate threat for another platform to become industry standard, but that doesn't mean we won't reach that point if Autodesk doesn't get their priorities straight.

harlan_brumm
Autodesk
Status changed to: Gathering Support

Hi all, 

 

Just to confirm for all of you - yes, I have a forum account, yes, do read many ideas, but no, not all of them.  Kimberly has gone a great job replying here already on how tagging works and the rest so I will make this short. 

 

I hear your frustrations and do understand the importance of documentation and legends in your workflows.  I have worked in the industry since I was in high school, at this point about 25 years (in architecture and civil engineering).  I do this job because I care about helping architects and engineers deliver great work.  

 

From my POV, our objective has never been just about making new things.  Its about solving problems and helping people.  We have delivered hundreds of ideas of the last few releases that specifically are about making existing things better and to make Revit more consistent so we can improve workflows across every discipline.  We have a lot to do, for sure - and we will never be done.  We wont get to everything you want though.  In the thousands of conversations I have had with customers, one thing is evident, Revit has a lot to do, and everyone has their things they want us to make better (and rarely does anyone have the same list).  This inspires me everyday to get better and do more. 

 

You might have heard it from me before, but your feedback is a gift and just because today we might not be planning to implement your idea or only have something "on our radar" that it will still be true tomorrow - things change all the time.  Please keep contributing what you can, giving us feedback, participate in our discussions and research, and keep sharing your issues and workflows with us. 

My only ask is that you do it in a constructive way.  Thanks for taking the time to add your feedback.  

@harlan_brumm, I wish to be constructive, and appreciate you and @kimberly.fuhrman taking time to talk about Legends. However our discussion ended with no concrete resolution, the community still needs to be able to create legends, Autodesk still have no plans to implement functional legends. We need some clear (constructive) response from Autodesk about legends.

 

We can see from the roadmap that legends are not planned for the 2024 release, and, since they are not on the roadmap at all, not even likely for the 2025 release. Can you tell us what sort of timeframe we are looking at? Can you also identify what other documentation improvements are pushing legends further back in the line? I believe scheduling rebar bends would be the one pushing it off 2024, but why not 2025?

dennis_collin
Advocate

Even some 'minor' improvements such as being able to rotate component and format views, reliably dimension, tag components and filter component lists would go a long way in making users happy(-ier). I'm sure 'we'd' take just one of those as a starter. Anything is usually better than nothing!

 

As other said if not immediately doable then some kind of indicator on the roadmap as to when some improvements might be made. It is frustrating to me (as a user and a consultant) to see such things as  readable contour label, dark themes etc. updated when more critical limitations need to be addressed as a priority.

 

What I believe many of the contributors want to understand is what makes the issue of improving Legends so difficult? Remember Legends aren't just for Architects, but also Structural Engineers, Landscaping, MEP and everyone in-between as well. If we can't have the bone now can we be at least told where the string dangling said bone is down the road?  It would make many users happier, perhaps some of the perception of users feeling ignored and forgotten would recede?

wr.marshall
Advisor

@MichaelWarwick7522 I suspect it is more likely that 3D Walls & 3D topography are big projects the are detracting from the lack of development of Legends(even though this will be multi-disciplinary). If Legends are on the radar I guess they will only work on this once these two big projects are finished as fixing Legends fit for us end users will be a big project in itself. I think especially topography has been thorn in the side for many users for many years and would much rather have this then Legends(probably as not as fuctionional as we want, and so we have accepted it's broken and given up hope that this will be developed further). That being said I have no idea what Autodesk will work on for +R2025 and onwards. 

 

  @harlan_brumm @kimberly.fuhrman (Kimberly I know we discussed already, but maybe reconsideration from Autodesk required) would it not pay to add a column in the roadmap called "on the radar" for items that will will be developed +2-3 years down the road. I understand items like 3D wall and 3D topography are quite big projects that you are working on and probably won't reach maturity until R2024/R2025. "on the radar" would suggest what the next big projects would be after your current big projects ,but will not be available within the next +1-3 releases. I think 1 column would suffice for all disciplines, but another option would be to have an on the radar for each discipline. I Think everyone understands that software development is no easy task, or there would be more BIM competitors on the market, and though it feels like we the users want everything yesterday(which we do 😋) we understand that some projects are big and require a few years of development to be fit for purpose. But at least we then know after current big features what the next big features might be. 

smichaudN26PG
Enthusiast

Periodic Bump on this as I work with Legends for my Firm this week. I am happy to engage Autodesk Dev on this. As we are trying to automate template creation and client/type deviation for project setup and would love to be able to one day use the Design Automation API to handle some of these "Manual" or "just draft it instead" actions we keep hitting

 

  • Legends cant be transferred from files easily. This hurts template rebuilds, branching of templates,  standardizing of project file symbols. (heck we open old projects from 2012-19 revit for the next phase and our symbols are out dated on those files so its a pain to bring them to the current frim "standards")
    • work around: Groups! these seem to move and import families in one go
      • This is so useful to help configure files with our content symbology and families
    • Using the method stated of groups we can bring in more items and types if they are in the group but we may only want to show 1 type. (I am hiding these types in the legend after transfer to help prevent purging as transferring them hidden seems to drop the hidden types) I could make 2 legends but again would have to do extra steps to deal with creating 2 legend views
  • Legends cant edit phasing
    • This can be done be editing elements Visibility Overrides but this is decoupled from the phase settings graphics meaning people can make them differ on accident
  • Legends cant edit instance parameters.
    • Families with simple parameters like say a door swing means multiple types are need for something that is simple like a 90 and a 45 swing used to help denote Demo, Existing/New (also see phasing comment above) (this takes 2 work arounds)
    • Symbols with Labels cant have the sample values edit. (we like to say Ref 1 showing on a evaluation maker by default but want the legend to show sample values of Elevation numbers values aka we want to set them as different value samples) 
    • Complex families like mechanical ones that autosize are set to default to 0 cfm and thus autosize to show a frowning face for users to be aware values are not set can't be used with out making a extra type to show and thus means the type we want users to use can end up being purgeable unlike the "legend" Type
  • Not all categories can be placed that we NEED
    • Ducts/Pipes/Conduit (only section view are Available) we want to be able to show a few segments (Plan view) with "Systems" applied to show the system graphics, tags with info (name, system abbreviations etc) 
    • Grids/Level/Viewport Types etc only can place the symbols not the types. We can "Fake" them by drawing the lines and place the symbol but it be nice to just create a sample grid line with say an A or 1 value from the proper type. 
  • Symbol Scale is another thing. We may want to be able to say make a symbol family in a legend appear at 2x or 4x scale to be able to put a bunch of annotation about the symbol (EX a weld symbol)  we currently have a detail drafting view of this but it decuples the symbol from the legend view of the item. If Annotaion Scale could be a prameter to toggle on a symbol similar to MEP symbols (valves etc Use annotation Scale parameters) that would help as we still want to show say a door at 1/8th scale for sanity and paper space. 

These are the Reasons why most legends are Drafting views and not actual Legends in our project files. We barely use these features due to work arounds and then are left with rework to modify line work when updates are made for standards or just specific project uses.  We have gone as far as a design option called symbols and legend set to not show in views due to these limitations. Its so close but the stock pile of work arounds/limitations piles up quickly and then we are stuck with going back to Autocad Drafting (but blocks worked well in that setting as there was no "Element" 3d modeling in that setting (for us)). 

smichaudN26PG_0-1658421922645.png

 

Excellent points!

 

"Legends cant edit phasing"

I hate that we have to DRAW what demolished components look like instead of just using the demo phasing graphics.

 

You're also right that copy/pasting legends is not possible (I guess in case the element is not located in the "paste" file) and that this results in people making drafting views instead of legends. It basically become a bloated version of AutoCAD that cannot use any of the built-in 3D intelligence.

 

There's so much work to do on legends and so many adverse effects of the poor implementation of legends at the moment.

wr.marshall
Advisor

Legend.PNG

(A) I know this has already been request multiple times. This is a screen grab of a legend view for an asymmetrical window. It looks odd showing the window from the front, but then the "plan" is shown from the back. This just to illustrate the requirement for being able to rotate a legend view for the folks at Autodesk. Another option is to have a (1) "Plan front view" and (2) "Plan back view" (as currently show)

 

(B) This Legend view is obviously from a typical project!!! However the wall that shows up in the Legend is taken from the Family template (In this case a window family). If I wanted to indicate this wall and my project had 500 different types of window family.  I would have to go and change each wall type in the respective window family to show the current wall layering configuration. Halfway through/almost finished updating these family's there is a project change in the layering configuration of a wall, and you are forced to start again. So another sub idea to this thread is to be able to pick the wall type used in a Window Legend plan  from project wall types. This will eliminate the need to update the wall in each family, especially if a particular window is used in parallel projects with different wall layering, with one common window family file. In turn if the wall layering is updated this will automatically be reflected in the legend. (Note: there should probably be a wall flip button incase the wall layering is incorrect orientated with outside-in and vice versa...)

We would like to use floor and ceiling component inside legend view not only in section view, but also in plan view to show the surface texture/pattern. That is useful to describe which kind of floor we are using in the project and make a quick legend of them. Thank you

Tags (2)
Damien_Turner
Explorer

Legend Components - Improvements to allow automated legends

 

Step 1 Give the ability to schedule legend components. 

 

Step 2 Give the ability to rotate legend components, not all families were made the same way and libraries are too big to rebuild

 

Step 3 Allow 3D views of legend components and the ability to set/lock a rotation

 

Now the user can create a schedule with Legend Component (As the view they need for a legend), family, type and description. Boom automated legends that won't be missing items.

dennis_collin
Advocate

So no legend improvements in 2024, can we hope for an improvement in a 2024 point release?

 

So many things Legends should be able to do, but dont

 

This is one of the top voted wishes, any indication where/when on the road map some (any!) improvements will be made?

I pray the Autodesk Gods implement Legend improvements in the next 10 years

🙏🧙‍🪄🧙🙏

 

It's not on the current roadmap, so it seems this has still fallen on deaf ears

https://trello.com/b/ldRXK9Gw/revit-public-roadmap

dennis_collin
Advocate

Maybe there's a roadmap for the Revit New/Planned/Implemented Features roadmap! 😛

 

Maybe we should type louder? 😄

Will pray as well if it helps!

 

 

 

 

esatis
Advocate

I asked about legends in this years AMA Revit, still seems there are no intentions to change anything in foreseeable feature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLrrGEtBKEM
@dennis_collin here is new roadmap- we can vote on ideas. https://portal.productboard.com/aec-bid/7-architecture-revit-public-roadmap/tabs/20-in-progress

I also got the same answer in a call with Harlam Brumm. He did not seem to understand why we needed this so badly and said it was not planned anywhere unless there were somehow many more votes on the Ideas platform.

 

It was disappointing, it was like there was no problem at all needing to be solved with Legends.

 

There's no point of voting on roadmap ideas if the ideas we care about are not present on the roadmap ideas 🥲

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