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Allow to Schedule Loss method, Loss Method Setting, and specific coefficient

Allow to Schedule Loss method, Loss Method Setting, and specific coefficient

Please allow us to schedule:

1. Loss method Setting,

2. Loss Method,

3. specific coefficient,

4. pressure drop

 

for piping, ducting fittings and accessories so we can verify and control sizing. Also we can apply ourselves any standards in the world.

 

10 Comments
Martin__Schmid
Autodesk

Hello-- thanks for the request.. Can you elaborate on why the information that is in the Pressure Loss Report isn't sufficient?

 

 Would there be any negative aspects of having this information in a Schedule instead of the Pressure Loss Report format?  What would you gain by having it in a Schedule that the PLR doesn't allow you to do?

 

Can you be more specific about standards?  Are you looking for the ability for Revit to support tabular data for duct fitting losses (currently .tbl files) and pipe fittings (currently an .xml file) that provides a mechanism to tailor the values to country specific needs?  What standards specifically are you looking for... e.g., can you cite a specific reference where duct and pipe fitting data would be published/referenced from?

 

 

Martin__Schmid
Autodesk
Status changed to: Under Review
 
mdengusiak
Advocate

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for the amazing support and votes for my ideas. This is very much appreciated. THANK YOU.

 

Hi Martin. Thanks for progressing my idea.

In order to reply I need to provide a short introduction. People who perform calculations within MEP fields are Engineers, with Bachelor or Master degrees.  The tools we use do not need to be as simple as using tablets and pressing one click to get simplified results.  Design engineers need an accurate, fully accessible tool that allows the user to input all data, easily modify and run iteration, verify calculation and print all results in convenient, clear and rigid way.  During the design process, we must be able to respond to changes quickly and provide solutions at different stages of the design. I do not expect Revit to comply with each local standard but be open and flexible enough so we can implement any requirement / standard we need. Luckily, in case of pressure drop this is possible.

 

The current Revit Pressure Loss Report is not sufficient as this is not fulfilling all requirements listed above. We need to have an interactive tool that can be modified.

 

The best option would be to have a Schedule where all the data required to re-calculate pressure drop is accessible and editable.  My idea focusses on pipe and duct fittings (bends, Tees, transformation pieces, etc) because this is the most complex subject to calculate k-factor/ ζ value.  The following values would be required to calculate the k factor/ζ value:  Flow In&Out, Dimensions In&Out, Angle, Radius etc (In = data at the incoming side of the fitting, Out = data at the exit side of fitting). This would allow us to sort fittings in a Revit schedule and go through each one and check them.  For example, the ability to change the loss method from “auto Coefficient from ASHRAE Tables” to ‘specific coefficient’ and insert our own values.  This would work without need to export via Dynamo, create custom nodes or necessity to click on every fitting and therefore save a lot of time.  The schedule is the right place to perform all these calculations in a clean and transparent way.  If we have the ability to have all the data in the schedule, we could put onto an official drawing and submit.

 

Another topic is finding the Index Run (Critical path of most resistance) - once the System Inspector is operated, we can visualise the Index Run.  My idea is for the Section Reference of the Index Run to be inserted into the properties of each pipe / duct, fitting and accessory.  Having the Section Reference of the Index Run in a parameter will allow it to be easily visible in the schedules and drawings. This would not only allow us to check all values along index run but also Tag and add colour on drawings.

 

Please see images below that represent my Idea, more as inspiration rather than a calculated example.

 

schedule.pngnetwork.png

 

 

 

mdengusiak
Advocate

Here is list of references regarding pressure drop in fittings:

 

# Taschenbuch für Heizung + Klimatechnik 2017/2018

European most respected Guide for MEP Engineers

https://www.recknagel-online.de/produkte/2016-taschenbuch-fuer-heizung-klimatechnik-20172018/

 

# CIBSE Guide C: Reference Data 2007

Section 4.9 Pressure loss factor

4.10 Pressure loss factors for pipework components

4.11 Pressure loss factors for ductwork components

http://www.cibse.org/Knowledge/knowledge-items/detail?id=a0q20000008I7oQAAS

 

# Guide to HVAC Building Services Calculations 2nd Edition (BG 30/2007)

Section A4 Duct Sizing – Pressure Loss Through Fittings

                W3 Pipe Sizing – Pressure Drop Across Fittings

https://www.bsria.co.uk/information-membership/bookshop/publication/guide-to-hvac-building-services-...

 

# Hydrodynamische und gasdynamische Rohrströmung; Druckverluste

Berlin: VEB Verlag für Bauwesen 1988, ISBN 3-345-00222-1 by Prof. Dr.-Ing. habil. Bernd Glück

This is German publication. It is now free and include VB code. Also allows calculation of Pressure losses of two-phase flows.

http://www.berndglueck.de/druckverluste.php

 

# I.E Idel’chik  Handbook of Hydraulic Resistance. Coefficient of Local Resistance and of Friction.

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1220/ML12209A041.pdf

 

# Instalacje Wodociagowe, ogrzewcze I gazwow wykonane z rur miedzialnych. Wytyczne stosowania I projektowania

This is polish detail guide about design of copper pipes and include a pipes pressure drop for fittings including heating, cold water services and gas pipes.

3.3.2 Opory miejscowe/ Pressure Loss Through Fittings

http://www.miedz.edu.pl/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/wytyczne-projektowania.pdf

 

# Online German Pressure Drop calculator

http://www.druckverlust.de/Online-Rechner/Luft.html

 

# Online Swiss Pressure Drop calculator

http://www.schweizer-fn.de/zeta/start_zeta.php

kanatof
Advocate

A good idea

 

I would like to add:

 

1.  Ability to more easily set fitting loss tables (pre-defined in family, multi-select, different priority).. e.g., CD3-11 defaults on M_Round Elbow - Gore : 3 Gore 1D, and I prefer CD3-12

2. Ability to extrapolate table data (e.g., 400x400 sq / d125 round transition in table SD4-2).

Thierry.A
Advocate

And time goes by....
It does not seem too difficult to me to start with, to allow the possibility of putting a pressure drop coefficient directly into the families of duct connections as well as into the accessories. This will definitely make it possible to do without the current "automatic" system, which is completely unusable!

kimberly.fuhrman
Autodesk
Status changed to: Gathering Support

In an effort to consolidate threads, we are updating this thread to Gathering Support. We are continuing to evaluate where this request falls into our roadmap and will provide an update when we have made a decision. 

 

The Factory

Thierry.A
Advocate

Santa Claus will not come again this year.

kimberly.fuhrman
Autodesk
Status changed to: Accepted

Congrats! We think this is a great idea, so we've decided to add it to our roadmap. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

To follow the progress of features in development, please see the Revit Public Roadmap and join the Revit Preview Release to participate in feature testing. (Note that Accepted Ideas may not be immediately available.)

 

The Factory

Thierry.A
Advocate

Just 8 years of waiting, but thanks anyway.

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