Window Tag Location

[solvdesigns]

I would love to learn that I am just doing something silly and that there really is logic to how Revit is locating window tags.  I have been in the habit of manually adjusting their location so they are lined up, but I am tired of doing that.  I want them placed consistently!  Here is what I am finding as the problems and what I have found as a workaround:

As best as I can tell, there are three issues with how Revit tries to place window tags.

1. It appears that the default offset distance for a window tag placed without a leader is about 2.5” greater for windows that are placed in top and right side walls than for identical windows that are placed in the bottom and left walls.  This would at least make a little sense if it was top and left grouped and bottom and right grouped.  I can’t make any sense of it as it is.  Any logical explanation?
2. The window tag placement appears to be based off the origin of the window, but NOT the origin of the tag family.  Instead, the distance from the window acts like it is some RATIO of the extents of the tag.  Try this to see what I mean.  Create a window tag family that is just a 1/4” radius circle.  Tag a couple of windows with those.  Then change the tag family circle to 1/8” radius and reload.  Now tag the same windows with the resized tag.  See how the tags are not aligned to either the center of the prior tag or the edge of the prior tag?  Once again, what is the logic here?
3. This same weird ratio-of-extents thing still happens even with leaders.  Change the extents of the tag (such as by having an additional parameter label that is sometimes visible and other times not), and the length of the leader changes even though you have set it to be the same length.  WHY?  How hard is it to just have either the tag origin or the edge of the tag be a consistent distance from the window?  There has to be some logic here, but I am missing it.

I am trying to use window tags that have information both outside and inside the window.  So, I need a consistent distance from the center of the window to the center of the tag.  It seems like that should be the easy default…

My current workaround is to use a simple circle “placement” tag that I place for all windows.  I have to use a small leader so that the distance is consistent for bottom/left and top/right windows.  Once those are all in place with their centers equal distances from the windows, then I can select all window tags, turn off their leaders.  Then I can change their type to the window tags I actually want to use.  That is not too hard of a process, but it seems ridiculously unnecessary.  What am I missing or not correctly understanding?

[SteveKStafford]

Tags are placed offset from the Exterior side of the window and beyond the model extents for each window. It is a hard coded arbitrary yet consistent result. It is assumed that tags will be moved/adjusted into ideal placement according to documentation requirements, as the documentation moves toward completion.

Each tag family has an origin and the graphics of the tag is oriented around that origin. You can adjust the location of the graphics to shift it away from the origin. However tags used in plans at a different scale will be closer to or further away from the window. Tags are designed for printed size so they maintain their size at all scales (printed size).

[solvdesigns]

Thanks for your response Steve!

I agree with you that what you describe is the way it SHOULD work.  It is just not the way it is working for me.  I am happy to accept that it could be user error, but I can’t figure out what I may be doing wrong.

As explained above, even when I use the most basic tag that is just a circle and use exactly the same window, there is a difference in default tag location for windows in top and right facing walls vs. bottom and left facing walls.  At 1/4” scale, that difference is about 2 ½”.  I am not changing scale anywhere with these window tags, so I don’t think that is causing the problem.  That 2 ½” difference is a problem when the tags include a sill height that should be consistently located just inside the window. 

Also as explained above, the location of the tag origin away from the window origin also appears to change depending on the size of the tag.  For example, a tag with an additional line about a transom window will not be placed in the same location as the standard tag.  Try the 1/4” radius circle tag vs the 1/8” radius circle tag experiment I described to see what I mean.  Does the origin of those tags end up in the same location for you?

It seems pretty logical that the default location of the origin of the tags should always be a consistent distance from the origin of the window.  Both of the issues above make that not consistent.  If you have a way to make that work, could you please explain how you are doing it?

Thanks!

[SteveKStafford]

The image I shared is based on a stock template and tag. Can you create a mockup of your condition and share that file? It would be easier to see if there is something different about your tag for example.

[solvdesigns]

Thank you very much for your responses @SteveKStafford !

I apologize that it has taken me a while to get back to this! I had some client projects that needed to get out the door before I could focus on other things.

I have attached both a pdf and a Revit project file showing what I am describing. I attempted to eliminate as many variables as possible. The test window tags I am using are nothing more than a circle. All the windows are exactly the same. The walls are all the same. There is nothing else in the project to interfere. Still, the inconsistent and illogical window tag placement remains.

I will point out a few things:

1. For the windows at location #1 the tag is simply a circle with a 1/8” radius. These are placed without a leader. It doesn’t matter whether you are looking at the extents of the tag or the origin (center) of the tag. Either way, notice that the #1 tags in the top and right walls are about 2 ½” further away from the window than the #1 tags in the bottom and left walls. This is inconsistency Exhibit A.
2. Now to the tags in location #2. These tags are placed in exactly the same way, and were exactly the same tag, but the circle is now 1/4” radius. The first inconsistency between top/right and bottom/left walls continues, but now there is a new problem. Let’s call this inconsistency/illogical Exhibit B. In all cases, the distance of the tags from the windows is different than those at location #1. Once again, it doesn’t matter if you are looking at the extents of the tag or the origin of the tag. The tag appears to have shifted further away from the origin of the window by some RATIO of the size of the tag.
3. For the tags in location #3, I am back to using the original 1/8” circle tag, but this time they are placed using a 1/4” leader. The good news is that using the leader does seem to solve Inconsistency A. The tags are now an equal distance away from the window in all walls. It just means I have to use these “placement tags” with leaders to set the desired default origin location of all window tags, then come back and remove all the leaders, then come back again and swap out the placement tags with real window tags.

Why not just have the default for location for the tag origin be the same location as the window origin? How simple is that? Why is it different for top and right walls than for bottom and left walls? Why does it shift around in some undefined ratio of the tag size? Why does it stay consistent when using a leader, but not without one?

I have found my work around, but both inconsistencies seem pretty silly and unnecessary to me. As stated at the very beginning, I would love to hear that I am doing something wrong and that there really is a logic to what Revit is doing!

[SteveKStafford]

A single tag family is all that is required to provide a symbol that is the same size when a document is printed.

It's my observation that the tag is placed consistently but dependent on the extents of the window family being and the extents of the tag. So the "edge" of a tag's extents (smaller or larger circle) is placed at some value relative to the extent of the window family's forms.

Like I wrote earlier, the developers assumed the default location of a window tag will ultimately need to be moved so where it lands initially is a default setting that they have not provided any access to. No matter how much time you devote to trying to dial in where a tag lands you'll end up adjusting some of them. That's consistent with my experience regardless of software or drafting by handing (yes I'm that old).

The tag position is offset from the wall/window whereas other tags will land at the family origin like a door or furniture tag will. So that's a unique assumption since in the early designers work experience window tags are always offset from the window. They could/should have provided a way to define that offset as a variable. Even if they did someone would still find the default spot doesn't work in all situations. I'm guessing they've been busy chasing other rabbits down other rabbit holes all these years.

Tags will snap into alignment with other tags when you drag them so at least it helps put them in the same place when you have to adjust them to your liking. I also grab all the tags along a wall and use the arrow keys to "nudge" them all up/down or side to side when I'm fine tuning the view.