Switch Join Order error

[Pieter.DeBleser]

Hello,

We found what we believe is another issue in Revit.

We created a concrete beam (to allow for a window below it) inside a wall. Of course, Revit warns that the beam is not visible because it is entirely placed inside this wall. We want to make this beam visible to allow for it being seen as a construction element on plans.

We solve this by using the Modify > Geometry > Join command: Switch Join Order.

It doesn't work. Furthermore, Revit warns that a serious error has occurred, and that a recovery file will be created. This does not end the application, work can be continued.

We made a screencast demonstrating this error:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/learn-explore/caas/screencast/Main/Details/9e4...

The only solution to the problem we found was setting the Structural Usage of the wall to "Shear". Only then can the join order of wall & beam be manipulated to the required setting, in order to make it visible.

We encounter this frequently in different projects.

Can this be recognized as an issue to which a solution may be offered in one of the next updates?

Regards

Bram Vana

[cbcarch]

Is the wall concrete? Metal studs? Wood? (You did not describe the wall materials) so trying to join a concrete beam to a different wall construction will not work, as expected. If the beam and wall are exactly the same material, they will join.

What "plans" do you want the beam to show on-- Reflected Ceiling Plan? as it is a lintel above a window?

(Lintels do not normally show on Floor Plans)

Perhaps a Structural Framing Plan would be best suited for showing and annotating the lintels above windows?

Sometimes a Framing Elevation is also useful to show the lintel extending past the window/bearing condition, etc. and details can be referenced from it,

and/or the Framing Plan.

[ToanDN]

If the beam is completely inside the wall then you only have one join condition, that's why Switch Join Order doesn't work. Think about it.

[Pieter.DeBleser]

Hello,

thank you for the fast reply.

The wall is a brick wall. In attachment a sheet to clarify the situation. As a structural engineering office, we make structural plans, sections and elevation,... We also make detailed rebar plans in Robot. 

As you can see, we use the structural (up) plan, but we also want to show the beam in a section where we want to 'cut' or 'join' the concrete beam above windows. In this case the beam is a lintel that supports the roof.

The point in this case is that an error occurs when I try to join the wall and the beam, when the structural usage is put to 'bearing', but 'joining' and switch join order works fine when this setting is put to 'shear'. It would be nice if I wouldn't have to make the workaround with the shear setting.

Perhaps it is better to cut the beam than, to join it?

Kind regards,

Pieter

[Anonymous]

Hi, I'm encountering the same error when I try to join a generic 300mm structural floor with a 300x600mm (it's more wide than thick). After placing the beams and drawing the floor revit warns me that the beams are completely inside the floor, and when I try to switch the geometry I get the same error message telling me to save a recovery file. It doesn't seem like I can use the same workaround, given the fact that I can't set the beam's structural usage to Shear, but to other functions that won't help anyway.

My workaround was to build the floors in parts, divide each floor in parts and extend the pavement over the beams but this took me a lot because of the wide structure i'm working on (reinforeced concrete colums and beams)

This is a serious issue revit should manage to fix.

[ToanDN]

Again, when a beam or a column is completely inside the wall then there is only join condition or join order.  You cannot switch the order when only one exists.  Pull you floor back to the edge of the beam so that they don't overlap.

[Anonymous]

I have to update my comment: I was actually able to join and switch the join order. The workaround consists in setting the floor thicker than the beam, and do the join/switch order thing so it doesn't tell you they're completely inside eachother, and then reset the floor thickness to the original, it worked for me.
I needed this for the actual pavement's finish surface, not sure if the same thing works with the same issue of the wall.

[BramMaveauVKAE]

Good workaround! 

We had the same problem with a wall in a roof . If you first draw  te wall height higher than the roof, join the roof and wall, switch join order and lower the top of the wall again.

In this case the wall has to cut the roof structure and not the insulation. So the wall is completely inside the roof, but it have to cut the roof.