Rotating family with spacebar rotates and moves family

[jens.slofstra!]

Hi everyone,

I think one of the hardest things to do in a family is rotating entire families 360° without breaking.

When trying this in a Metric Generic Model it will usually break at 0°, 90°, 180°, 270° etc.

A solution is provided Marcello Sgambelluri with his Ride the Rail method  Link below:

http://therevitcomplex.blogspot.com/2012/04/rotation-rigs-that-do-not-use-angluar.html

Only problem with this method is that rotating your family in a project with spacebar is messed up.

What I mean with that is when spacebar is pressed the family rotates around a whole different point.

To my knowlegde this point is completely random and I can not figure out how to fix this.

So my question to all of you, what causes this behavior and how can I fix the family so that it rotates around itself and not the random point.

Attached you will find a project with the family in it.

If more information is needed please let me know.

Also some pictures for more information:

[Lance.Coffey · Accepted solution]

Thank you for the question @jens.slofstra!

In reviewing the provided model, I’m seeing that the Spacebar (Rotate Family Instance) command is rotating the family around the Project Base Point.

To see this, turn on the display of the Project Base Point, then place instances at different distances from the Project Base Point and use the Rotate Family Instance command (with Spacebar key).

In comparing to other families, this behavior seems to be specific to the Generic Model Adaptive template. I don’t see similar behavior with a non-adaptive Generic Model family (but I do see this behavior with a new Generic Model Adaptive family with a couple model lines drawn).

Have you tried using a Mass family, instead of the Adaptive Generic Model (I’m not seeing similar behavior when using a Conceptual Mass)?

[jens.slofstra!]

Thanks @Lance.Coffey,

Good to know it is not specific to my family.

I will try it with a Mass family.

I will update if this fixes the problem.

[RDAOU · Accepted solution]

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@Lance.Coffey wrote:

In reviewing the provided model, I’m seeing that the Spacebar (Rotate Family Instance) command is rotating the family around the Project Base Point.

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Hi @Lance.Coffey / @jens.slofstra! 

It is the standard behavior of a non-hosted Generic Model Adaptive Component...Hosted vs Non-Hosted

1. When not hosted, Using space bar rotates them around the Internal Origin 
2. When hosted, Adaptive Components do not or are not supposed to rotate using space bar
   • To host an adaptive, you need to convert at least one point into an Adaptive Placement Point

The standard/basic Generic Model template (Not the adaptive template) rotates as anticipated

[jens.slofstra!]

Thanks @RDAOU for clarifying.

Unfortunately you cannot use the Ride the Rail method with the standaard Generic Model template.

This is however possible with the a Mass family like @Lance.Coffey said in the previous reply.

Anyway thanks for further explaining this behaviour.

[RDAOU]

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@jens.slofstra! wrote:

Thanks @RDAOU for clarifying.

Unfortunately you cannot use the Ride the Rail method with the standaard Generic Model template.

This is however possible with the a Mass family like @Lance.Coffey said in the previous reply.

Anyway thanks for further explaining this behaviour.

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@jens.slofstra! 

You actually can, you can do it using any family template...I am not sure about the author of that article but I sure do hope that you are not planning to model everything in a mass family every time you have a rotating component?!!! 

Nonetheless, I had no intent in discouraging you from using a Mass Family but only wanted to clarify that the non-hosted adaptive rotates around the internal origin and not around a random point or the project base point.

[jens.slofstra!]

Now my interest is peaked.

To my knowlegde the Ride the Rail method can only be used by using Reference Circles and Reference Points.

Those types of references are not supported in the standard Generic Model template (at least I don't think).

Can you explain further how this is possible?

This image is copied from the link in the original question:

[RDAOU · Accepted solution]

@jens.slofstra! 

The geometric concept in general is based on revolving a point, a Line, or a plane around an axis (or a fixed point in case of a sphere). In Revit, this applies as follows:

1. There is the Hosted point on a Reference line/curve (This method usually used in conceptual massing and the method which that article you posted seems to claim to have discovered)
2. The traditional and most common is using the Ref line locked/pivoted at one end + an angle parameter (And I must say, if done properly it is very stable and DOES NOT BREAK as that article state.)
3. Then there is the alternative to method 2 and not the very commonly used method: Using a Revolve - This is a simpler way to create rotations constrained between 0 and 360 degrees in any template; Mass as well as any other such as basic generic, doors, windows...etc (and presumably by some more stable than method 2 but I believe all are the same)...it uses the face of an invisible revolved component - similar to a virtual hinge so to say

Anyhow, you found your solution in the Mass...from my side, I would encourage you to look for other ways because you can't be using a Mass for everything that rotates : o)

Edit: I would also encourage you to read the comments on that article... It seems not only I believe that it has several wrong statements and misleading information

[jens.slofstra!]

Thanks again for the clarification @RDAOU.

You are right in stating I cannot use Mass for every family that rotates.

It will go against the whole principle of categories and can be really confusing for end product users.

I will do some more research on the topic and will post an additional answer if I find one.

Anyway many thanks for the furter explaination.

I have only one question still remaining.

In your second solution you state that it is possible to archieve 360 degree rotation with only a reference line and an angular parameter without breaking.

Do you have some kind of article I can read to further understand the correct way to implement this.

I have tried this solution but in my case it breaks after the input of a degree of 0.

What I suspect Revit does in this case is see the locked end of the reference line, sees it is in line with a reference plane and automatically locks not only the end but the entire reference line to the reference plane.

A sample family is in the attachment.

[RDAOU · Accepted solution]

@jens.slofstra! 

You do not need a tutorial ...you just need to lock the length of the Reference Line. See below GIF for the family you uploaded. Much simpler than what that article made it seem to be...no?

[curtisridenour]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhbkjStGvbg

Fabio Sato explains another way of rotating components using the reference planes associated to the reference line. I find this method to be more stable for the 0 180 -180 conditions of rotating families.

[RDAOU]

@curtisridenour 

I am not sure why you are addressing me and what am I supposed to say!! A parametric reference line rotation is perfectly stable. 

If an advice or an opinion on those posted YT videos is what you seek, you would need to drop the stable and unstable Saga/Hoax. Otherwise simply use the method you are comfortable with and confident  about. And always keep in mind, it is just a software, you can bend and dictate any workflow to your own will : o)

[curtisridenour]

I have found that if i am rotating nested components, they behave better when you use a different method. I was trying to add to the conversation that some of the nuance of family rotation is unintuitive.

I noticed that one of my methods for rotation, (the one you show above) does not work when an element is tilted in the Z for a nested family. It worked in 2019 and not in 2021. I found Fabio's method and it seems to be more stable than my old method. So i wanted to share that very nuanced way of hosting and rotating things within Revit families so that the community would see that there might be other options that work better in different circumstances.

The main reason for posting is that i was struggling with rotation families last week and this helped me and i wanted more people to not be as frustrated as i was.