Model Text Smoothing in Revit

[Homsey-CCH]

Correct, Revit is for buildings.  Expecting it to do smooth 12 point model text 1/8" tall may be too much, but 3/4" and even 5/8" lettering is used on signage in buildings. 

To show a client a rendering of a hallway with the room number/name signs means we have to oversize the text right now.  A smoothing variable would be very nice.  I hate telling a client: "the actual letters won't be this big, but it's a software limitation."  As we progress further with Revit, and visualizations of the models get better, the notion of what is "good enough" is changing.  Some clients expect to see (and approve or comment on) very accurate renderings.

A smart programmer may think 3/4" text is not needed, so why worry about it?  Autodesk should trust that their clients (architects and designers) know what Revit should do for them, instead of telling them they are using it wrong.

I hope to see fewer "that is just how Revit is" statements and more "we hear your request and we will address it."  If I need the output quality, I could change the smoothing variable and live with the temporary performance reduction, then change it back.  Revit file size should not be affected by text smoothing or font size.  Frame rate in 3D views may be affected, and output files to rendering software would be affected, but this would give that control to the designer.

[L.Maas]

I hope it is clear that I am not working for Autodesk. Thus I am not able to address anything.

In my post I give potential solutions (different type of fonts, create extrusions in the shape of number or letters).

In your case I probably would use a family using extrusions to create the numbers or I would use images/decals for this.

Depending on the output potential other solutions would be to use post processing software (e.g. photoshop, 3ds max) to add in these kind of small details

If you want to see something like a smoothing variable, then it possibly is a good idea to post it in the IDEAS section

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Homsey-CCH and @L.Maas

I'd like to take this further.

Can you both provide some screenshots and mention the version of Revit your are using?

I can forward your feedback and information to the team and file a bug report if required.

Thanks,

[ToanDN]

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@Viveka_CD wrote:

Hi @Homsey-CCH and @L.Maas

I'd like to take this further.

Can you both provide some screenshots and mention the version of Revit your are using?

I can forward your feedback and information to the team and file a bug report if required.

Thanks,

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Any versions.  Here is for 1" text.  The smaller they are the worse they get.

[loboarch · Accepted solution]

I think the real issue you run into here is the limitation Revit has on "element too small" issues where you can draw segments shorter than 1/32" in Revit.  This is caused by the hard units setting in Revit being inches. So "smoothing" text so the facets are below the threshold Revit is able to draw is a pesky problem.  Perhaps there is some way to interpret model text more like a font, but right now it is basically an extrusion that approximates a font. Until the fundamental way model text is generated or until Revit makes units be more flexible so segments below 1/32" are possible, faceted model text is going to be the "norm".

[Homsey-CCH]

This is in Revit 2019.  It was the same in 2017.

Here is an image of a 6" x 6" wall sign family with 1" room number text, and 5/8" room name text.  This is the actual size of the tactile signs going in a university building.

The elevation view includes model text and matching annotation text.

And I hate to pile on, but in 2019 I still can't apply model text to a curved wall / surface unless I construct the signs  letter by individual letter.  (not really hoping for a sphere to work, just a cylindrical shape)

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Homsey-CCH

Based on the response by @loboarch here are a few articles and threads on 'element is too small'

Element is too small on-screen - forum thread discussion

Element Is Too Small on Screen - AKN article on Revit 2015

Element Is Too Small on Screen- AKN article on Revit 2018

Regards,

[Homsey-CCH]

I understand you are stating Revit currently has a 1/32" segment limitation for this.  It appears to be using a larger distance than that to draw model text.  See the letter 'b' below, constructed on a 1/32" grid snap in AutoCAD.  All segments are at least 1/32" long.  That faceted approximation of a smooth letter is quite a bit better than the model text that Revit produces, which you can see in the lower image, with the center of the 'b' in this case actually filled in.

Regarding the reply from Viveka_CD that reading the linked posts could provide a solution:  those posts don't really help with this text issue, but the forum thread that goes back to 2008 does express a continued frustration with the precision limitation that seems to be built in to Revit.  The company answer seems to remain the same, that more precision is not needed, while some users find that it is a problem for them.  A company can either choose to address their customers' requests or justify why they should be ignored.  In this case, maybe allowing users to change a variable that increases Revit's level of accuracy when needed, or just increasing it as a default, is impossible without rewriting major portions of the software.  That could be a reasonable short-term justification, but just saying "you should do things the way we intended" and repeating that for a decade isn't going to make customers feel good.

It's also disappointing to see "A topic you're following has an accepted solution" when that solution is simply saying there is no solution; it's a software limitation.  (in the post by loboarch)

The user requests for better model text smoothing go back several years, to at least 2015, and requests for more precision in general go back much further.  Jeff, thank you for a reply that addresses the topic and states the limitations, but I wish it wasn't listed as an accepted solution.

 (here is a 5/8" tall letter 'b' drawn on a 1/32" snap grid.  It could be better, but it's not horrible.)

 

(Here is how Revit currently draws a 5/8" letter 'b' using model text.  If it used 1/32" segments, it should look much better than this.  Other fonts can produce different faceting, but none appear to be as good as they should be, even under the current limitations.)

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Homsey-CCH

I understand your frustration.  I will get more feedback on your query from the dedicated resource for annotation, and file a report if necessary!

As for the accepted solution @loboarch explanation is the closest to as to why this occurs. This will benefit others from the community seeking similar answers instead of scrolling through tons of posts on threads.

You are welcome to continue the conversation and I understand the issue you are facing!

I will share any updates from the team.

Thanks,

[Viveka_CD]

OK @Homsey-CCH

Below is feedback from the team:

• Generally, the model text is not recommended for elements this small. Some of the segments won't be extruded and the result will be less than desired.
• To be really honest, this is way too small an object to model. (ref:@loboarch post) talking about the "element is too small".
• Even if you have signage that includes this text, you will barely see it in a rendering or even when walking through in a hidden line view.  You would literally have to walk up to/zoom into the sign to read the text. 
• In a working drawing set, the sign in the model could be a simple shape with no text, and then the Detail of the sign or a signage schedule would describe the text that should be on it.  If you really want the text for a rendering, the suggestion is to place a decal on the sign.
• A workaround would be Using a decal or material instead which will yield better results for very small character elements such as this.

Please select the Accept as Solution button if my post solves your issue or answers your question. (not the solution you expect - but a close workaround in this case) 

Thank you,

[Homsey-CCH]

As I wrote in my previous post: "A company can either choose to address their customers' requests or justify why they should be ignored."  The team chose (and continues to choose, year after year for various issues) the second option, telling us how we should want to use Revit, even going so far as deciding what objects I shouldn't worry about in renderings.

Decals are not editable in the model like a family, so we'd prefer to use model text.  Also, signage is often extruded so it needs a thickness to look realistic, and larger sizes of model text (that maybe you'd allow that I should use) also appears obviously segmented.

This particular example of room signage is not for working drawings, it's for when we do a live walkthrough after we export the model.  The client can choose to walk close to any object, so it's possible for small elements to be quite large in the view.  We don't use VR headsets, but if/when that happens, this sort of thing will be even more important.

Revit's ability to help us make a 3D model for renderings is just as important as its use for working drawings.  We want those renderings to come quickly from the model, sometimes changing and updating daily, and without needing time for a lot of post processing or creation of decals.

As far as "acceptance" goes, that was just a workaround for an issue that was raised at least 4 annual software releases ago.  The need for workarounds should be something you want to fix.  Would it really be so bad to offer a variable for model text smoothing that would allow the user to adjust this if needed for a Revit Type?  We should not need to make our own custom extrusions to simulate fonts to make text look good.

Maybe you should consider making some fonts that come with Revit that are fully constructed with arcs, so their model text extrusions look good at any size?  Or give Revit an option to create model text extrusions from vector based truetype fonts by using arcs instead of segments?

i.e. the smooth number 2 below is an extrusion made with arc segments.  It took 8 arcs and 4 lines to make.  The text above is model text, Arial, 2" tall, and obviously faceted.  The extrusion made with arc segments is smooth at any size.

I know AutoDesk can do better, and most likely you will have a better implementation of model text eventually, but it shouldn't take a decade of customer requests to get you there.

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Homsey-CCH

I see what you are saying!

Thanks for sharing the details.

I will pass your feedback to the team and meanwhile please make a post on the Revit Ideas forum

Regards,

[ToanDN]

My workaround is create the model text as a much larger size in a family, export it to DWG, then import the DWG back in another family and scale it down to the required size.  Rinse and repeat when the content changes of course.

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Homsey-CCH

Another workaround shared by @Prlx_AaronM

• Planting families can be "scaled" and it happens after the geometry is created.
• Make a nested family of planting category, for the letters.
• Make them 1 foot tall.
• Load into a new family.
• Change scale of planting family to be smaller. 
• The image below for reference.
• Some Text is segmented but some of the letters look fine.

model text nested in planting family

Please select the Accept as Solution button if my post solves your issue or answers your question. 

Regards,

[twiceroadsfool · Accepted solution]

Hello @Homsey-CCH-

This is Aaron Maller (twiceroadsfool on twitter and RFO). 

Let me start off by saying:  I 100% agree with you: It is necessary to be able to accomplish this. The first time i had to put a wayfinding signage package together in Revit was in 2006, in version 8.1. It didnt even matter (at the time) if it needed to be rendered (and that was Accurender, so thank God for that), but they had to be elevated, and the text needed to be shown.  They also needed to be scheduled, and the text needed to be shown there.

So yes:  We COULD have used a parameter for the sign, in the schedule, and then ALSO placed Annotation Text over the sign, in elevation. But that answer stinks.

So, i dont recommend the "ugly Planting nested" component very OFTEN... But in this case, for whatever reason, it "works around" the finite processing of the text modeling.  Here is the actual strategy needed:

Generic Model Family Inserted in to Project (Level 0) > Planting Family (Nested Level 1) > Planting Family (Nested Level 2)

Planting Family (NL2) has the Model text in it, set to a text parameter.  Load it in NL1. Inside NL1, select NL2, and connect the Height Parameter to a Parameter you put in NL1. Same with the Text Parameter. Load NL1 in to Generic Model Family.  Connect the parameters in NL1 to  parameters in the GM family.

Now it will work, and you can scale it decently smaller than the native model text.  I can easily get the text down to 5/8" and have it look good.  Its still faceted, but its not all broke-face. 

Its not a pretty solution, but it WILL get you there.  And i would recommend this before importing DWG's (no offense to the other poster).  Hope that helped.

Here is the original sample file, by the way.

[Homsey-CCH]

Thank you ToanDN and Aaron for those ideas.  I'll try those workarounds.

Viveka, thank you for your attention to this.  Hopefully AutoDesk developers can see from these posts that making smaller and smoother model text is actually something that designers want to do, and is not an unreasonable feature to work on.  When software developers see that designers and architects are going to such creative lengths to work around a problem, it seems it should be a clear sign that the software needs work.

Eventually, I think AutoDesk will need to work out a better engine for making extrusions from TrueType fonts, which should closely approximate all curves with actual arcs instead of a bunch of segments.  That would produce extrusions that are not dependent on scale to look smooth.  A short term fix would be to allow users to set a smoothing variable that would essentially get results like Aaron is getting, but without the complexity of using nested Planting families for text.

I hate to punch the "Accept as Solution" link for a workaround, because I fear that it removes the issue from any potential "to-do" list, and will therefore never be addressed by AutoDesk.  Having smooth model text is not a new request, so it's been successfully ignored for quite a while, by using the same Jedi mind trick I've seen before: "you don't need that for building documentation."

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Homsey-CCH

Thanks for your feedback. I see what you are saying!

Another tip shared by @Judy_S as follows:

"Maybe they can make generic model families for each of the letters (these would be extrusions) and place them one by one on the wall as you would when building the building. Come to think of it, they might want to use a different category, such as casework or furniture so that they can apply materials."

@Homsey-CCH I would also suggest you please make a post on the Revit Ideas forum and add your comments there as well. The next steps would be to gather votes for the idea. (The ideas forum is basically a 'to-do' list like what you've mentioned and has a dedicated team looking at) 

Idea Statuses are as follows:

• Gathering Support 4,686
• Under Review 56
• Future Consideration 20
• Accepted 38
• Implemented 53
• Archived 1,520

@ToanDN  kudos for the workaround and @L.Maas  good to see you chime in as always

Thanks to the team for all your valuable input @ryan.duell, @twiceroadsfool, @Judy_S, @loboarch, @angel_velez

Regards,

[ToanDN]

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@twiceroadsfool wrote:

Its not a pretty solution, but it WILL get you there.  And i would recommend this before importing DWG's (no offense to the other poster). 

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None taken.  Thanks for sharing the obviously better workaround!

[tnieves]

The fact that autodesk responds to these things as "we are doing it wrong" is frustrating when the product is marketed as the smart product and yet so many things can't be smart, or take a lot of BIM manager time to do so.

Here is the thing, rendering isn't the only reason to have text. I am currently in the process of re-doing our signage. Up to this point we have used PNG's for signs which is a mess if we need to modify anything, looks crappy, and takes time. In addition, there are many multi-building projects that use the same signage package for all the buildings. Our solution to not having to copy paste everything to each is to have a "Detail Model" and "signage model" for details and signage. However, revit doesn't even allow linked drafting views, so getting this to work involves drafting on a detail plan, then linking that into each model. Now, if we want "smarter Signage we could make Detail components, but text doesn't work in detail groups, so you have to first make annotation families, then put those in detail groups. Then you'd have to make a ton of these for every sign, not to mention that if you want a 3D representation of some sort, now your modeling a bunch of nested families for one Sign. If you do use regular text, it cannot be aligned to anything like 3D text can so it's flexibility can be limited. 

If there was even a "flat" text decal that worked on surfaces, that could have constraints and paramters, that would be great, especially if it had label capabilities and text formatting options. Then it could show up renderings, and for details. It doesn't need to be 3D, it just needs to show up in 3D and any other view. Like 2D text that is hosted to a surface and shows up in 3D views with materials or colors. Actually being able to "Draft on any surface and have it show up in renderings or 3D would be great. extrusions aren't needed for everything, but there isn't an alternative.

However, 3D text is currently the only option to work in all situations, but it's crappy looking. Decals also seem to not always work in families and would be no more beneficial across the board for signage anyway. Signage should be easy in Revit. Draw up an extrusion box, have some flat editable text, and any decals, and be done. I think a general frustration with Revit, is that sometimes it makes things that should be easier, harder or no less time consuming then doing things the dumb way.

[mattwalk727]

Expecting Revit to do anything apparently is unrealistic. I'm so tired of Revit simply not being able to do what it's supposed to. I shouldn't have to incorporate a work around or a plug in to accurately create simple building signage. How do we get Autodesk to actually invest into Architectural software instead of spending all their money dominating other markets (including A.I.) ?