Is there an easier / faster way of creating complex roof constructions? (Example included)

[Prvoime]

Do I need to do it like this?
Yes, if I want exact material quantities, which I want, otherwise what's the point of doing it in Revit.

First, the roof layers. Some layers have to go all the way over the entire roof (tiles, membrane, boards), while others go only up to the walls (insulation, second layer of boards).
So I create two roofs, "exterior" and "interior" one. And place them one above the other accordingly.

Then the construction. Here's an overview:
1. Put in Purlins.
2. "Copy" roof boundaries (with linework) as detail lines and hide the roof itself (since I use Sloped Glazing later). These lines are used for trimming and extending rafters, but they also stay there, that is how we plot our roof framing plans.
3. As far as I can tell in situations like these where precise placement is important, beam system is useless. I use it just to create the first "dummy" rafter and then copy that one around that plane, another for another plane, third for the third one... Copy, paste, array, align, trim, extend, extend, trim, align... Since location lines either don't reach all the way to where they're supposed, or they overshoot (even though trim/extend is used and changing location line of beam to top of geometry doesn't help), you have to use helper lines and reference planes, and align rafters to them.

So many clicks, sooo slooow, so many clicks. Oh AutoCAD, I'm sorry for everything I said, I love you.
4. Lastly, battens and couterbattens, which I create with Sloped Glazing (finally something fast and easy), and bury them inside.

Short overview with many more intermediate steps. Is this it? This is how it's done?

Specific questions:
1. When placing beams (purlins) I can't snap to wall core center line, only wall centerline. I solved it by placing reference planes by picking lines (they can snap to wall core centerline), then just tab select them all for purlin placement. It's a fast workaround, I just want to know if I'm doing something wrong which is why beams don't snap.

2. My air layer isn't transparent. This results in counterbattens placed in that layer to be invisible on sections, which makes battens look like they're not laying on anything. Any fix?

Thanks in advance!

[ToanDN]

Trying to understand why you think Beam System is useless.

Also, if you are doing this for a majority of projects then consider a specialized add-in.

http://strucsoftsolutions.com/mwf-pro-wood/

[barthbradley]

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@Prvoime wrote:

2. My air layer isn't transparent. This results in counterbattens placed in that layer to be invisible on sections, which makes battens look like they're not laying on anything. Any fix?

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"Fix"?  For what? Transparency? Yeah, make the "air layer" not transparent.  Or give it a cut pattern.   

[Prvoime]

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@ToanDN wrote:

Trying to understand why you think Beam System is useless.

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Because everything is interconnected, spans between rafters are dictated by the roof points and are not the same.

Consider this schematic. Rafters must start at points A, B, C, D and F. Those are obligatory. So rafter that starts at point D, rafter 2, also dictates the position of rafters 3 and 4. Span between rafters 3 and 4 is constant, you could use a beam system for that one segment, except, beam system doesn't place beams at the beginning and end of the system.

Then you come to the rafters between rafters 4 and 6. Except, placement of 8 and 9 is dictated by 10 and 11. Which are also connected to the span between points C and B through rafter 1. And so on, and so on...

Either I'm not using it correctly, or beam system doesn't allow any sort of manual control. You can unpin beams from it, but than you're back to manual placing, aligning, extending, trimming... I found it easier to just place one and copy it around, use array where possible. But it's a tedious task.

[Prvoime]

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@barthbradley wrote:

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"Fix"?  For what? Transparency? Yeah, make the "air layer" not transparent.  Or give it a cut pattern.   

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The other way around, I want it to be transparent so that counterbattens that run through it are visible. But it's not. Can't figure out why.

[barthbradley]

I think I know what's going to make your day.  3D Snapping.  Do you know where I'm going? Press Beam (Structure Tab) and then on the Options Bar check 3D Snapping. Now use Pick Lines method to place Beams on the Ridges and Valleys of your Basic Roof.  Watch the magic happen.  

[barthbradley]

Another piece of information that may help...

If your Beam System looks like this:

...when it's supposed to look like this:

...then Edit the Beam System Boundary and add a Boundary Line for Beam Direction like this:

[ToanDN]

See below:

- Left are 3 beam systems so the beams are at exact intersection points (which I think they serve no practical purposes plus you need more expensive connectors, only look neat on framing plan)

- Right is 1 beam system

[barthbradley]

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@Prvoime wrote:The other way around, I want it to be transparent so that counterbattens that run through it are visible. But it's not. Can't figure out why.

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Try as I might, I'm still lost on this one.  Are you saying you battens are buried inside solid geometry - and you can't hide that geometry in the View?  If so, what about giving the geometry a slight Transparency through Override Graphics in View: By Element?    

[Prvoime]

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@barthbradley wrote:

I think I know what's going to make your day.  3D Snapping.  Do you know where I'm going?

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This time, I do! 😄 Ridges and valleys are easy!

[Prvoime]

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@ToanDN wrote:

See below:

- Left are 3 beam systems so the beams are at exact intersection points

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Exactly, you have to create 3 systems. In my example, where in one field I have 6 different spans between rafters, I found it to be more hassle than it's worth. Especially because beam system doesn't put beams at it's beginning and end.

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(which I think they serve no practical purposes plus you need more expensive connectors, only look neat on framing plan)

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I'm calling them rafters for clarity sake, they're probably not what you consider rafters. For them we use what you might also consider beams (by their size, typically 10×10, 10×12, 12×14cm), which is why the span between them is ~90cm. It's not just to look neat, roofs are really constructed this way in my country.

[Prvoime]

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@barthbradley wrote:

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Try as I might, I'm still lost on this one.  Are you saying you battens are buried inside solid geometry   

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They are buried inside one of the roofs layers - the air layer. I thought because it's air it can be set to be transparent (in "Hidden Line" view) even though it's one of the layers.

[RDAOU · Accepted solution]

@Prvoime 

You can work the beam system to place beams at beginning and end

1. Either by using Fixed distance and offsetting the System width by 1 x beam Width (b)
2. Constructing the Frame and using Automatic Beam System for your secondary rafters (That's how it is built anyways .. in Germany at least)

There isn't really a much easier way to model and detail such roofs manually in Revit (regardless of the possible alternatives)

If you are a Dachdecker and you are NOT into Dynamo, you do need to consider investing in a specialized add-in...I have seen a couple of subcontractors using some plugin called AGACAD which seems to do the job for them ...I have also seen in another firm a more customized/complex addins that generates the connection detailing and Fabrication cut elements as well ...I think your best option is to explore such options

[Prvoime]

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@RDAOU wrote:

There isn't really a much easier way to model and detail such roofs manually in Revit (regardless of the possible alternatives)

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That's pretty much what I wanted to check, just to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious, thanks!

[RDAOU]

@Prvoime 

To answer your specific questions from the original Post.

• Snap Beams to Center of Core: Enable Structural and Analytical Model...Set the Analytical z Justification to Center of Core...Then you can snap to the Analytical Lines...maybe this can make things a bit easier with less ref planes and less clicks (See GIF Below)

• Perlins in Air Layer:
  • Either set transparency under Graphics tab to 100 (in case of Hidden Lines) or Under Appearance tab for other display mode

• Alternatively Use a wall by face instead of a Roof...Walls can be Converted to Parts which can be useful in such construction types >>> as a Part, you can Exclude the Air layer

[Prvoime]

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@RDAOU wrote:

To answer your specific questions from the original Post.

• Snap Beams to Center of Core: Enable Structural and Analytical Model...Set the Analytical z Justification to Center of Core...Then you can snap to the Analytical Lines...maybe this can make things a bit easier with less ref planes and less clicks (See GIF Below)

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That's interesting! Will test it out to see which is faster / easier.

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Perlins in Air Layer:

• • Either set transparency under Graphics tab to 100 (in case of Hidden Lines) or Under Appearance tab for other display mode

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Yup, already had it set as transparent, apparently it doesn't work in section views. Here's a simple example. A thick wall comprised of nothing but an air layer. Column stuck in it. Column is visible in plan view and 3D view, but not in section.

[RDAOU]

@Prvoime 

It works in sections...it is just the contour lines which will not be transparent (Unless you override them)...If you want to hide it entirely, you will need to work with Parts...and exclude the parts you don't need

[Alfredo_Medina]

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@Prvoime wrote:

Do I need to do it like this?
Yes, if I want exact material quantities, which I want, otherwise what's the point of doing it in Revit.

(...)

So many clicks, sooo slooow, so many clicks. Oh AutoCAD, I'm sorry for everything I said, I love you.

I don't see the logic of those sentences quoted above, really. So, you were fine drawing roofs with single lines, and using a calculator and a ruler to calculate quantities. Then you decide to do everything with excruciating detail in 3D. Then you complain that there are too many clicks to do. 

[ToanDN]

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@Prvoime wrote:

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@ToanDN wrote:

See below:

- Left are 3 beam systems so the beams are at exact intersection points

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Exactly, you have to create 3 systems. In my example, where in one field I have 6 different spans between rafters, I found it to be more hassle than it's worth. Especially because beam system doesn't put beams at it's beginning and end.

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Then going with the 3-beam systems is still a better approach than placing joists manually.   No copying, arraying, trimming.  The more complex the roofs are, the more time you save.

- Place the joists at the edges of beam systems.  These joist serve two purposes: (1) define the beam system sketch boundary, (2) substitute the missing border members of beam systems

- Place beam systems in these empty spaces

[Prvoime]

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@ToanDN wrote:

- Place the joists at the edges of beam systems.  These joist serve two purposes: (1) define the beam system sketch boundary, (2) substitute the missing border members of beam systems

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I know, I guess it's a meter of weighing your approach on a case by case basis. It this case, for me, doing it manually seemed like the least amount of hassle. Or I just need to practice putting in beam systems 🙂

Either way, I guess I wasn't doing anything fundamentally wrong and beam system is the only other way. Thread solved 🙂