Architectural and Structural Elements

[johnharvey]

When architects and structural engineers work in revit, do architects duplicate the structural elements in their own models (ie. model their own slabs, columns, foundations, beams, structural steel etc), or do they use the structural engineers model as a permanent link in their models, forming part of the documentation? Which is the correct way or which is the norm?

I have worked both ways depending on the complexity of the project. The problem we often run into when using the structural engineers model as a permanent link, we sometimes progress ahead of the engineer in terms of documentation which means we need to edit the structural model. or sometimes the engineer has not quite modeled something correctly, or there are overdue amendments in the structural model.

Copy/monitor only copies walls, floors and columns. Not beams, trusses, framing etc?

[Sahay_R · Accepted solution]

Link ARCH into STRUCT, STRUCT into ARCH

Copy / Monitor levels

No duplication of structural elements in the ARCH model. We see them - that's all we need.

If the architects see errors / items that need modification in the STRUCT model, they will need to inform the structural engineers / consultants of what needs to be done. 

[-FDC-]

What about the calculation notes when you modify the structural model?

Do you update them as well?

[Sahay_R]

In our organization - the structural engineers / consultants are accountable for the STRUCT model, as the architects are accountable for the ARCH model. We don't touch the STRUCT model - we just let them know what needs to be addressed and they do it. An effort to avoid muddying the waters.

[johnharvey]

No. We edit the structural model for architectural representation only. The structural engineer still maintains his own separate model.

[johnharvey]

Hi Rina.

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with you 100%. 

regards

John

[-FDC-]

But why seperate models?

It is the strength of Revit that you can use one model for all disciplines!

Less miscomunications and less errors.

[johnharvey]

Hi -FDC-.

The structural model is linked into our architectural model for architectural representation. Without it, there would be no structure in our model, unless we model our own structure.

The structural engineer is a separate consultant on the project. He manages and details his own documentation.

The reason why we need to edit the linked structural model is as described in my original post.

That is why I have posted this for advise on other possible workflows.

Not sure if i am being clear on this?

j.

[-FDC-]

I would not edit the structural model but opt for the link.

If you edit the structural model there will be two models!

It is the task of the engineer to edit the structural model and the calculation notes of this model.

If the architect is "messing" around with the structural model calculation notes are not for this "new" model.

[johnharvey]

I agree with you 100%.

Thanks for your input.

j.

[-FDC-]

You're welcome !

[Anonymous]

But when we attach structural element as a link to architecture file we can't join wall with column so the material of the wall calculate incorrectly. So What Should we do?

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@Sahay_R wrote:

Link ARCH into STRUCT, STRUCT into ARCH

Copy / Monitor levels

No duplication of structural elements in the ARCH model. We see them - that's all we need.

If the architects see errors / items that need modification in the STRUCT model, they will need to inform the structural engineers / consultants of what needs to be done. 

---

[Anonymous]

I am currently trying to convert revit file into etabs for structural analysis of my masonry church. But the problem is, my revit model is pure architectural blocks. I think I need to make it structural elements. Ahmm, how to do that sir/maam? I just wanto to avoid creating a new one model

[Sahay_R]

@Anonymous  Save a copy of your architectural model and devote that to structure. Keep what you need, delete what you don't. Add structural components from the Structure tab. Then link the Structural model into the Architectural model. That's the right way to do it and what you should learn.

[Sahay_R]

@Anonymous - Copy/Monitor the columns etc that you need. Another way - use the Pick Lines tool to pick edges of the linked model to create reference planes to use as references in the architectural model. 

[radik_fandi1723]

Hello @Sahay_R ,  what about beam object? we cannot use copy monitor for beam and if wall crossing with beam, it detected as clash model in ACC, how to solve this? my BIM Coordinator didn't want to much clash model between archi and structure. Need your suggestion..

Thanks in advance

[Sahay_R]

You are correct - Cooy/Monitor for beams is not an option. The other options are clash detection in Navis or in BIM360 

https://www.autodesk.com/autodesk-university/class/How-Run-Clash-Detection-BIM-360-Model-Coordinatio...

A thought - depending upon the size of the project- Tab-click to select the beam, CTRL-C then CTRL-V. I know this sounds ridiculous. Under the circumstances, biting the bullet to do Clash Detection as it should be done would be the way to go. 

[anze.kumar]

If you know that all of your Beams that are crossing the walls are not actual clashes, then you could inform the BIM Coordinator to set his Clash Detector as (Beam-Wall - is not a clash).

If you want to avoid the clashes, maybe try Copying the Beams to your model and then Cut them out of the wall.

[irfan.shaikhSHSU5]

@Sahay_R 

- Does this mean that the Structural model 'has' to be linked for ARCH model to be complete?

- Instead can the ARCH model have its own Structural Elements (either created or copied from STR link). This may also ease out visibility control and the Join geometry in Revit for ARCH. 

- Very importantly the ARCH consultant can put forward his intent in terms of the Col sizes and position, Floor slab thickness and Stair style. Ultimately, the sizes and positions recommended by the STR consultant will be adopted.

- One of our ARCH consultants insists (and are adamant) on not creating their own STR elements and rather depend on the STR link. We as client have insisted them to create their own STR elements so that the dependency to have a complete ARCH BIM model in not on the STR consultant. Or at least copy monitor the STR elements from the STR link.

- This consultant actually creates only finishes without core concrete layer for slabs, Stair finishes without core concrete wedge, Spaces left for STR columns and beams. Other consultant creates their own STR elements.

- This creates a big cycle of going back and forth to align and match edge to edge for elements during the coordination. ARCH model also has to wait for the STR model to be refined first to release the ARCH drawings.

Is this the right method to follow? Or please suggest the right method to follow. Also if their is any Standard mentioning about this workflow. I understand that it may differ from project to project on the basis of its scale and country.