GAIM - add vents to avoid high temps?

Anonymous

GAIM - add vents to avoid high temps?

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi!

I'm a new user (student), trying to figure out Gas Assisted Injection Molding with Moldflow.

I started with a simple model and PP, but keep getting an excessively high temperature (+400°) warning. As the highest temps are at the flow front I figured it was due to air traps and tried to add overflow wells (beam element) and vents (defaults).

With GAIM the vent option is grayed out - is this correct? My workaround is to switch to Injection Molding, add the vents, then switch back to GAIM. Attached are some screen shots of my results.

 

Ultimately I want to repeat the simulation, replacing PP with PA-GF30. First trials show high temps again, so I'm trying to solve the issues with the quicker-calculating PP. I assume this is normal - that it simply takes longer to calculate the glass fibre behaviour(?)

 

Thanks for your support and I look forward to hearing from you!

 

cheers

dave

 

 

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Anonymous
Not applicable

I'm using the same mesh for PP (successful) as for PA-GF60:

 

cdn-dave_0-1612689168779.png

Do you think that could be an issue why the simulation takes so long?

 

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bernor_mf
Advisor
Advisor

@Anonymous 

Hi Dave,
first, basically in mold filling simulations it is assumed to be good venting of mold.
So in the GAIM process venting of mold is already there.

 

Further, venting analysis locations indicate where vents may be placed in the mold to allow air to escape the cavity during a 3D Thermoplastics Injection Molding, Thermoplastics Overmolding, Reactive Molding or Microchip Encapsulation Fill or Fill+Pack analysis sequence using the 3D Flow solver.
Hence not available for GAIM and button greyed out.

 

An overflow well is a secondary cavity into which the gas can displace polymer and thereby penetrate further into the part. So this will not help to simulate air vent.

 

As you get extensive high flow front temperature, and at end of flow, this indicates a high shear heating of melt.
This is probably due to the speed of gas expansion.
What happens with melt velocity and shear rate result?

I think you need to review the gas entrance property.
How is it controlled? Pressure? Volume?
If too high gas pressure, the gas speed will be too high, and could cause this extensive shear heating of melt.
Then reduce the gas pressure, to see if it resolves the issue.

 

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Berndt

( If my comments are accepted, provide "Kudos" as appreciation. If your request is answered/resolved, please click the "Accept as Solution" button. Thanks.)

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Berndt,

 

Thank you for the detailed response!

 

Ah, I didn't realize there is already venting in the mols. I added the vents per the advice here:

gas injection venting but the option is grayed out, hence my work-around. What do you think?

 

I ran a simulation using reduced gas pressure, from 300 down to 30 MPa.

The high temp still occurs - just when the gas injection starts:

cdn-dave_1-1612905376282.png

Do you think the velocity and shear rate are alright?

cdn-dave_3-1612905456903.png

cdn-dave_4-1612905484894.png

I had such high gas pressures in an attempt to get a more complete gas core. 

The left pic is with 300MPa, while the right is with only 30MPa - not bad considering it's a tenth of the pressure!

cdn-dave_0-1612905287148.png

The gas is set to enter at 70% volume filled.

The fill time is set at 5 seconds, also to reduce the velocity/temp. Otherwise it fills in ❤️ seconds.

 

I'll try some more iterations tomorrow.

Thanks again for the help, I appreciate the feedback!

 

cheers,

dave

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bernor_mf
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

Hi Dave,
regarding:
Defining a vent location
Well, you did according to instructions.
I reviewed it too, and it says venting could be put on overflow well.
"Note: A venting location can only be set on an overflow well."
So created Overflow well (beam) and Overflow well (3D) , and still venting buttons are greyed out.
A bit puzzled by this, as help says it should work, but cannot be set in UI.
Venting analysis normally is activated in solver parameters, but it is not there for GAIM.

Probably need Autodesk tech support to have a look at this option, and why it is greyed out.

 

Gas Pressure.
300 MPa is pretty high pressure (3000 bar!), (and, right, limit in settings is 500 MPa).
30 MPa is still a high pressure (300 bar).
So, the pressure level has to be set depending on what is reasonable for the plastic melt.
Note: the default gas pressure level is 3.1 MPa, and a reasonable starting point.

 

Velocity and shear rate is too high.

Velocity, max, when 30 MPa gas pressure: 9.124E+06 cm/s , 9 124 000 cm/s
A bullet around: 40 000 cm/s , so extreme speed on melt.

This is probably causing the shear heating of melt.

 

Shear rate, max, when 30 MPa gas pressure: 1.449E+07 1/s , 10 449 000 1/s
For an unfilled PP, the max shear rate is 100 000 1/s.
So 100x above limit.
(You could find information in material details, tab Recommended Process, for max shear stress / shear rate.)

You might need to expect higher shear rate, due to the fast gas expansion.

 

Gas core.
The plot looks a bit strange, as gas core is not continuous.

Looks like a blow through of gas.
Maybe you need to also have more melt and switch over to gas pressure, when filled about 80%.

 

Reduce pressure, start with default 3 MPa.
Then review if you need to reduce or increase gas pressure.

If reasonable, you could increase pressure step wise, and change melt volume as needed, to improve the core out.

 

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Berndt

( If my comments are accepted, provide "Kudos" as appreciation. If your request is answered/resolved, please click the "Accept as Solution" button. Thanks.)

Anonymous
Not applicable

Kudos Berndt!

 

Thanks so much for the advice 👍

The high gas pressure was it - I dropped to 3 MPa and voila, no more high temps.

The gas core isn't where it needs to be (yet), but I'm confident a few iterations with increased pressure and/or earlier volume switchover will get me there.

My simulation with PA-GF60 is also working much better with reduced pressure - looks like a blow through (at 3MPa, 50% volume), so trying a few more iterations above (less pressure and/or later volume switchover).

cdn-dave_0-1612988332169.png

 

 

Thanks again and have a good day 😅

 

cheers,

dave

bernor_mf
Advisor
Advisor

Hi David,
thank you for the update and feedback.
Happy to help. 😊

Good to see your issue is resolved. 👍

 

The gas pressure needed also depends on material, as melt viscosity affects pressure needed.

 

Happy simulation. 😊

 

Regards,
Berndt

( If my comments are accepted, provide "Kudos" as appreciation. If your request is answered/resolved, please click the "Accept as Solution" button. Thanks.)

Anonymous
Not applicable

I've been playing with gas entry pressure and the volume switchover, and even kept the overflow well.

This seems to be the best I can get the gas core:

cdn-dave_0-1613157578721.png

Do you think I can actually get the gas core to connect? More pressure or earlier volume switch over both cause blow-though.

Even without the overflow well, the automatic venting should avoid air traps, correct?

Though I still see these results:

cdn-dave_1-1613157694287.png

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

cheers,

dave

 

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bernor_mf
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

Hi Dave,
regarding gas core out:
For a closed design as in your example, the gas cores will never meet.
It is physically impossible due to pressure equilibrium.
The gas will travel to lower pressure area.
At end of core out the gas pressure is on both sides of plastic melt, and the pressure build up
creates the resistance for further gas movement.

A larger overflow well between end of gas cores, middle of plastic melt, could help to push out some more melt.

You need to model this in 3D, as an overflow venting to simulate an overflow well of infinite volume is only available

for Midplane mesh type.

 

The air traps result will be there as an information.
Even if assumption is a good venting of mold, you will get air traps plot information (if any).
Same for conventional thermoplastic injection molding simulation.
To review: select the air traps plot, then overlay fill time plot.
Review how melt front meets in the area of air traps.
This is good and useful information and indication of where you also might need to ensure good venting of mold.

 

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Berndt

( If my comments are accepted, provide "Kudos" as appreciation. If your request is answered/resolved, please click the "Accept as Solution" button. Thanks.)

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thanks for the info and advice!

It does make sense that the core physically can't meet. I can work with this though 👍

 

cheers,

dave

 

 

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We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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We care about your privacy. The data we collect helps us understand how you use our products, what information you might be interested in, and what we can improve to make your engagement with Autodesk more rewarding.

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