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Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

792 Views, 19 Replies
05-04-2012 02:34 PM

....why is it that ex-Solidworks users have this attitude that if they don't know how to do something or know if something can be done in Inventor, they simply insist Inventor can't do it?

 

Did you know that Inventor "can't draw an arc from the end of a line while still in the line command"?

That comment stands true still even after I demonstrated it can in fact be done.

 

Did you know Inventor "can't draw a line that is automatically constrained such as parallel to another line while in the line command"? Again, that statement still stands true to these people, even after I showed them that you, in fact can do just that.

 

The last ditch complaint......"Inventor has too many clicks".

 

I mean I've dealt with people coming from AutoCAD, Pro/E, Catia, SolidEdge, Cadra, etc. and never have I gotten more consistent push back as I do from SW people.....or as I am now calling them....Soliddorks.

 

Sorry, had to vent...is the weekend here yet?


     



Jim
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Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-04-2012 02:59 PM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

With this in mind, I recall back for Inventor 2009 release if I recall, they offered a training booklet that dealt specifically with those coming over to Inventor from Solidworks. It basically showed how to do the basic commands in Inventor that they were used to doing in SW.

 

Is AutoDesk still offereing this for each release? If not, they should, it would make my life a whole lot easier at least.

 

JD, maybe you have something along those lines? I would think you'd be the best authority on creating something along thses lines. I guess it could go both ways as well....SW to Inventor & Inventor to SW.

 

Just a thought.


     



Jim
Celtic Design Services, LLC

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Post 3 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-04-2012 05:01 PM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

I still have a copy of that old book...

 

What the ended up being all too often, was they didn't really care for what the courseware said was the difference, they wanted to see this compared to this kind of discussion so it always ended up being more consulting work than training, which is fine and I prefer, but the book therefore didn't sell many units and Autodesk wanted to end the comparison.

 

To think if they made it now they would have to call it PDS for the Solidworks user and it would be a two week long course.

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Mark Flayler - Senior Application Engineer


IMAGINiT Manufacturing Solutions Blog: http://blogs.rand.com/manufacturing/

Post 4 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-04-2012 08:38 PM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

Maybe they have had a bad week dealing with all the other things that Inv cant do as well, or at all, and their minds were totally fried.  Here's an example of each.

 

This SW does better

Thin feature option.  SW can extrude or sweep a line and at the click of an option button give a thickness in the one command.  Inv requires that you first sweep or extrude a surface and then thicken it.  An additional feature and extra clicks.

 

This Inv Cant do at all.

If you mirror a part in an assembly, Sw auto applies mates that maintain perfect symetry.  Do the same in Inv, no mates are created and it is not possible to create a mate that maintains symetry of the offset distance from the mirror plane.

 

2013 has only just added the ability to dimension the length of an arc in a sketch, about 5 years behind SW.

 

So your guys have gone from riding a super bike to riding a scooter.  The scooter gets there in the end but its slower and less enjoyable to ride.  Dont be too hard on them.

Post 5 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-05-2012 04:15 AM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

I don't know if I would compare it as super bike versus a scooter.  There are plenty of users that I know that have switched off solidworks and throughouly enjoyed the change.  If you want to compare features actually, it really isn't fair anymore.  You have to compare Product Design Suite to Solidworks, not just Inventor anymore.  So show me the equivalent of Sketchbook Designer, AutoCAD Mechanical, Navisworks Simulate, Showcase,3Ds Max, Alias Design, and Mudbox in Solidworks.  If some things take 3 clicks instead of 1 in Product Design Suite I would gladly give that up for what else it can do fro me.

 

And if you are talking anything with Factory Design, forget about it, Solidworks just cannot handle it on its own and doesn't play as well with the 2D as Factory Design Suite does.

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Mark Flayler - Senior Application Engineer


IMAGINiT Manufacturing Solutions Blog: http://blogs.rand.com/manufacturing/

Post 6 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-05-2012 08:56 AM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

Yeah a scooter might have been a bit harsh, lets say an 1100 v's a 750 Smiley LOL

 

As for design suite it depends on if you know how to drive the other software.  I dont so they are useless to me.  And in 2013  they add electrical to a mech design suit instead of P&ID.  Again for me wont even bother installing it.  I have had one person say to me that it takes the combination of 6 programs to do what SW can do in one - not that I agree with that.  But they are marketing to that, their premium brochure has the headline 'One package tackles all your design challenges'  Any new company trying to choose would question the training and data management costs of those 6 different programs v's learing and managing 1.

 

We could go on for a long time comparing obscure capabilities.  You can say Alias I say I cant use it but can use SW freeform tools without having to learn a new app.  You can say sketchbook designer (what it does I dont know) I can say fluid flow analyis.  You can say Mudbox (what it does I dont know), I can say edrawings for Ipad or 3DPDF.  You can say 3Ds max, I can say associative link to Rhino.  There will always be obscure differences but in core modelling such as assembly mirroring and choice of mates, Inv is way behind.

 

If you know how to create a symetry assembly mate using any combination of those 6 programs I would love to hear about it - I am tired of manually updating offset distances when ever I move my components.

Post 7 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-05-2012 09:01 AM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

I guess that it is the real drawback isn't it, learning other tools that can surpass the one that doesn't do it the best.  I see your point, but as a whole you have a lot more value (if you have the time) with PDS.

 

Did you know that Electrical does have some PID capabilities in it?  Adding Electrical and Navisworks was actually requested by a LOT of users to the Suite.  Some products are hit or miss depening on what you do, but when you get the products you want in that suite, you have no room to compare.

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Mark Flayler - Senior Application Engineer


IMAGINiT Manufacturing Solutions Blog: http://blogs.rand.com/manufacturing/

Post 8 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-05-2012 09:05 AM in reply to: Mark_Flayler

I agree about the symmerty mate or when Mirroring occurs to have the option to apply constraints at that time.  Have to put that on the wish list.  So why can't Solidworks do an Insert constraint as easily as Inventor does?  Little things shouldn't stop a user from learning the tool.

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Mark Flayler - Senior Application Engineer


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Post 9 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-05-2012 09:50 AM in reply to: Mark_Flayler

I am a single user so for me I dont have the time, but if I was employing I wouldnt want to spend the money on all that training either.  I think adesk made a huge mistake.  If I was a reseller of any other program I would hammer that point every time.

 

Youre right inv insert is less clicks than using concentric and coincident to get the same result.  (I didnt say everything was worse).  But check out the range of mates that they have - makes me weep - especially width and symetric mates.

 

http://help.solidworks.com/2012/English/SolidWorks/sldworks/aha1317932497838.htm?id=a3806fe82bb449d1...

 

Unfortunately it's often the little things that cause the most frustration.  I work from a home office.  My wife says I need to buy some new software because I swear to much these days  Smiley Happy

 

 

Post 10 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-05-2012 01:23 PM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

Most companies still keep Autocad around, so when you look at the price of PRDS it is a pretty good value considering you get Inventor and Autocad together. Plus Showcase is pretty powerful and not too hard to pick up on.

 

Autodesk has had Design Review for the iPad for quite a while now. 3D PDF is in a big bag of hurt. It isn't even owned by Adobe anyomore.

 

There are nice features on both sides of the fence, a few have been listed here so far.

Post 11 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-07-2012 04:03 PM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

MY standard non "PC " comment to these people after a while is if you hate IV and love SW so much why don't you just get a SW job. Then we both will be happy, so far only a couple have taken my advices the years. Like some bad wine with you're lousy cheese?

msk

Post 12 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-07-2012 06:55 PM in reply to: msklein

I have this discusion at work regularly (large consultancy so see a lot of contractors doing the rounds).

For some reason the SW people seam to think that if they dont know how to do it then obviously its not possible.

The only thing ive found that can be done in SW and not Inventor is flat pattern a flight (screw or say base plate for a bin overflow)

Like celticstar said...even after you show them...

I usually tune out as soon as i hear "but in solidworks I can just...blah blah blah

CAD Management 101:
You can do it your own way,
If its done just how I say!
[Metallica:And Justice For All:1988]
Post 13 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-07-2012 07:22 PM in reply to: stevec781

 

If you know how to create a symetry assembly mate using any combination of those 6 programs I would love to hear about it - I am tired of manually updating offset distances when ever I move my components.



Blah blah blah

my symetry parts move automatically when i move components...

its just another advanced modeling technique that your gonna hafta learn...

Just like you had to learn how to use your symetry mate, I learnt how to make them follow using an Inventor method.

 

CAD Management 101:
You can do it your own way,
If its done just how I say!
[Metallica:And Justice For All:1988]
Post 14 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-07-2012 09:04 PM in reply to: msklein

Thanks for pointing out that there is an advanced method to match Sw core fuctionality.  But I wont bother trying to figure it out because I am guessing that your advanced method wont allow you to drag the source part around and have the mirrored part follow dynamically with perfect symetry in real time like Sw core functionality can.  This is what I need during concept layout and my VAR said its not possible. If you can achieve that then you are one heck of a programmer and could probably make a lot of money selling an add in.

 

I dont hate inv, I just have two eyes open to the possibility that other programs can be better in some areas.

Post 15 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-07-2012 09:38 PM in reply to: stevec781

Im intreaged...what on earth are you designing that would require you to drag and drop around a mirror plane to calculate optimal layout location.

 

I dont hate SW its a tool ... so is Inv ... they do the same thing. (I have both eyes wide open)

 

Your workflow may make one easier to use than the other, for yourself only. That DOES NOT make it a better program, it makes it better for you and your specific skill set.

I would not expect an Inventor drafter to use solidworks, I would not expect an sw user to use Inventor.

If your leading hand in the workshop knew how to use the drill press, he wouldnt say the new drill press isnt as good as the old one because the stop button on the new one is called a halt button.

Its not better, its just a flippin drill press.

Same for the Inv/SW argument...They are both parametric solid modeling packages...get over the 'better' program story....they are both great mechanical packages...as long as the user is adequatley trained...and yes the learning curve is VERY similar for both programs.

 

CAD Management 101:
You can do it your own way,
If its done just how I say!
[Metallica:And Justice For All:1988]
Post 16 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-08-2012 12:15 AM in reply to: Rich.O.3d

Boats, where just about everything is symetrical about the centre line.  When creating a concept I miss being able to drag seats, cabins, engines, pumps etc and have both sides of the boat update.  I also waste a lot of time adding mates that Sw added automatically.

 

Yes both drill presses will drill a hole, but the one with more functionality might drill 100 holes faster than the one with less, and that in general makes it a better machine.  This is why workshops regularly upgrade their drill presses.  A manual lathe and a cnc lathe both turn, but the cnc is faster.  If we only cared about parametric abilites then we could just use Alibre instead, but we dont because Inv has more features and capabilities, just as Sw has slightly more than Inv.  So I have to disagree with your drill press analogy.

 

Take for example project cut edges in a sketch.  Sw allows you to select only the faces you want to cut.  Inv cuts everything that is visble,  so in Inv you have to toggle visibility on and off to control it, in sw you dont.  They both do the same thing but Sw does it faster and easier.  But when it comes to using project cut edges top down across parts in an assembly, sw remains parametric, inv doesnt.  So 99.9% parametric modeller in my view. (yes I now there is a workaround but it takes longer, is more complex and less reliable) 

 

Project cut edges is not boat specific and I could list a lot more.

 

I have used both for an equal amount of time and am just calling it as I see it.  I find I need to create more work planes/points and use more features to get the same job done. 

Post 17 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-08-2012 08:25 AM in reply to: Rich.O.3d

I STILL FIND my bigest problem at compinies is the lack of training. They think that at most you need just a basic training class and or no training if you know another system. One of biggest problems is reps and level of detail understanding how they work to create assy's and parts lists. Software each year adds more capability and complexity. Training is needed to increase productivity to understand how to best use (do) the new functionality, not just stumbling thru it till it works. Seen at way too many companies to know this is not a major problem, and we are a small part of the problem, by allowing it and not pushing our managers. Companies that use contractors are most definitly the worst, (particultly mill contracts). Contracts will cover equipment updates and software but not training, Talk about stupidity on the side of the company.Other major problem is that they have not updated their procesess to match the CAD software, so that they work together. End of my rant.

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-08-2012 08:44 AM in reply to: msklein

WOW!

I never meant this thread to become a "which is better" thread. Lord knows we've seen way too many of them here already over the years.

 

I look at it this way, depending on your workflows and what you are doing and how you like to do it, use the program that suites you better. I'm sorry but I do not subscribe to the claims one is better than the other across the board. As anyone with an honest mind here can admit, for every command you claim SW can do better, someone will claim Inventor can do someother command better than SW. And that's a fact as far as I'm concerned. I can list numerous commands that I've needed and used at previous clients that SW just couldn't do or couldn't do as well as Inv....and they had SW on site. Just as I'm sure there are numerous commands SW can do that Inventor can't. Again, that's NOT the issue of this thread.

 

This thread is about the general attitudes I've run into time and time again with SW users....this "hollier than tho" type attitude. The "SW can do everything and butter my **** toast each morning as well" attitude. I don't and haven't seen such attitudes from Inventor users trying to learn other softwares.

 

I've been to SW World a few years back (the same previous client mentioned above, I had to maintain both SW & Inv) and witnessed this attitude first hand. Yet when I go to AU, the people there will listen and actually welcome comments about SW and not take offense to it like the SW users do.

 

Case-N-point, I attended a SW2009 demo a while back (when 2009 was just released) and the demo was going over how SW can now import Inventor models. But the demo jock was showing AutoCAD files in the presentation. When he asked if there were any questions, I asked him if he could demo the process on Inventor parts as he claimed. He stammered and claimed he had just gone thru the demo. Another person pointed out he used AutoCAD files and not Inventor files. He then claimed he would, but that he didn't have any Inventor files handy. I offered a thumbdrive of some basic Inventor files to be used (note: this process was key for my client and we had to verify the claims). I got booed by the users in the room like I had just killed a puppy and before I knew it, I was being led out of the demo room. Now, before you assume things, I was totally professional and never claimed ill of SW, I just wanted to see the conversion.

 

That is nothing you'd ever see done at a Inventor demo.

About the best I can equate this attitude to that some of you may understand is how Pro/E people had the attitude towards CADDS5 back in the day. I could understand it then, CADDS5 was always beating Pro/E to the market with better features. The only way Pro/E was able to advance was to perform a hostile take over of CADDS5 and buy them out in order to bury it.

 

OK, I've gone on long enough. I'm just tired of the bs attitudes I get on almost a daily basis from SW users.

If you are hired on at a company that uses a specific tool, and you have experience on the other, guess what? They expect you to learn the tool they use. Stop fighting it and trying to get the company to switch over to YOUR preferred CAD program. Start your own company and do that. If you don't want to learn and use a differnt CAD program, then don't accept the **** job. I've used both programs and I prefer Inventor hands down, I do not apply for SW jobs, why the hell would I if I don't want to use it? But I digress.


     



Jim
Celtic Design Services, LLC

Inventor/AutoCAD/Vault WorkGroups
Always for hire - celticdesign01ATyahooDOTcom
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==========================================================
Please use the "Accept as Solution" and "Give Kudos" functions as appropriate to further enhance the value of these forums.

Go raibh maith agat (in other words...Thank you!)
Post 19 of 20

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-08-2012 08:52 AM in reply to: CelticDesignServices

All i can say is hear hear. It's just a tool.

Re: Why? Why is it that ex-SW users.....

05-08-2012 08:53 AM in reply to: msklein

msklein,

You are so right on the training aspect. Here they allow me one hour, yes, one hour to "train" new employees (with or without Inventor/Vault experience). In that hour I have to cover how they use Inventor and Vault along with the entire file Lifecycles and Categories, company standards, etc. It's no where near enough, especially if the new employee has a question or two (gee imagine that). But then again, if the new employee is an ex-SW user, their questions tend to be "SW does it like this, why doesn't Inventor?"

 

They refuse to allow user to charge time to training sessions so I have to do them as "brown bag lunch" sessions where I will be lucky to get 10 people out of 120 to show up. Instead they insist I write up a desk instruction to cover "every" possible issue a user can come across.

 

Training is key!


     



Jim
Celtic Design Services, LLC

Inventor/AutoCAD/Vault WorkGroups
Always for hire - celticdesign01ATyahooDOTcom
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Celtic-Design-Services-LLC/184666001666426
==========================================================
Please use the "Accept as Solution" and "Give Kudos" functions as appropriate to further enhance the value of these forums.

Go raibh maith agat (in other words...Thank you!)
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