Reusing frame members across multiple assemblies (Frame Generator / Parts List)

[kbear2AYYK]

Let's say we have a company that makes custom trailers that are made from pipe, angle iron, etc. Each custom trailer uses 90% of the same components. In turn the shop stocks these (90%) components. But we use frame generator because every trailer differs in a drastic way. To accelerate the design phase, we use frame Generator. 

Now, we see where we can reuse the same part inside each individual frame but not across multiple assemblies in different projects. In turn we have a parts list in the Drawing file that has assigned new part numbers automatically. 

How can we make it recall a single part using frame generator, basically using frame generator in the same fashion we would use a nut or bolt in an assembly file? Where it retains all the same attributes and properties of the original. Where if the original was changed, then every child part would also change? 

I get we could simply make a frame for the custom parts and then make an assembly, but the frame generator is about 90% faster and reduces chances of errors. 

FYI: We are running Inventor 2024 natively (no vault).

[Gabriel_Watson]

I am also curious if today there is any alternative for this problem. In the past I had to stop using FG for production, as I always needed to rename every file after generation, especially due to unique miters/notches. I ended up only using FG as a quick drafting tool.

[SBix26]

When you create a new FG frame, how would you determine which members could be "library" members instead of new ones?  If you know simply because you know your product so well, then I think you could use FG to create only the new members; then place existing FG members as ordinary assembly components (iMates would probably be useful).

It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it seems to work.  It does mean that whichever FG assembly created that library component to begin with still controls its length and end treatments, so you would need to be pretty careful.

---

Sam B

Inventor Pro 2024 | Windows 10 Home 22H2

[Frederick_Law]

The reuse one will not be part of frame gen.

Each FG part is referencing the same skeleton.

If parts are taken out and used in other skeleton, you'll have a maze of referencing.

The only reason to reuse a FG part is it got some fancy machining.

All parts with end treatments can use generic drawings.

What's so special with the reuse part?

[pcrawley]

@kbear2AYYK - I hear you!  You build a unique part today, and tomorrow you want to reuse it on a different design - so it's no longer "unique".  And the problem with FG is that every frame member is unique (unless you use "Reuse" - but that doesn't share parts between different frame assemblies.)

There are two parts to your question: 

1. Where it retains all the same attributes and properties of the original.
2. Where if the original was changed, then every child part would also change? 

Question 1:  Set the correct attributes in a sample frame member and then use it to replace the CC Family Template.  From now on, whenever you use FG to place this shape, it will have all the correct attributes.  If you aren't familiar with replacing the CC template, there are many good links in this forum (or reply and I'll find you one I posted a while ago).

Question 2: I understand the wish - but the results might not be quite what you want.  If you place a frame member today - then use a copy tomorrow but drill some holes in it - would you really want it to update the model you built yesterday.  (Probably not if yesterday's model was a submarine!)  I would suggest that if you got Question 1 sorted correctly, you would prefer to place a unique frame member - but it will look the same as the one you placed yesterday and have the same properties.

The idea of "change the original and every child changes" works for the likes of nuts and bolts, but for frame members it does not - unless you literally place an instance of the parent frame member into all future assemblies.  That's not practical, and just does not work with Frame Generator.

In your case, I'd "Place from Content Center" all the 90% of stock-standard parts and colour them something obvious and save them in a "common" folder.  When you build your first trailer, use the normal FG process of skeleton + frame members - but where you can use a standard part, place it from the common folder and manually constrain it.  When you later copy the design, you'll be able to visually identify "standard" vs. FG parts.  Now you have solution you asked for - complete with its dangers - and the ability to work with FG when needed.  Ok, it's a hybrid model (conventional bottom up + FG), but it does work and gives you the result you wanted.

[kbear2AYYK]

I am ready to concede that the answer is, "you can but you can't because if you did it wouldn't." 

I agree with each of your answers and very much appreciate them! The "Parts List" is still another issue that isn't addressed. In another thread, a couple KnowItAll's said, "You moron... you should never override your part list." without knowing how to make the part list work with Frame Generator. 

I am going to probably going to mark pcrawley's answer as the solution, but I'll leave this open for another week just in case someone out there says, "Oh that's easy! Here is how you do it..." or "There is an add-in you can purchase that will do exactly what you are asking it to do. It's called..." 

Thanks everyone! 

[Mario.VanWiechen]

I have done this, particularly on handrail uprights.

Decks, platforms and handrails can create an awful lot of files so I sometimes break them up into separate assemblies.

The skeleton sketch will be for all of them but the assemblies will be different.

As I do the sketches I make sure to keep the various uprights and other entities the same length and trims, either length or miter.

In the initial Frame Generator assembly I use the " reuse " command as I norm ally would.

In the subsequent assemblies I bring the common parts in as a part file and constraint as required. In the sketch for the second assembly I put workpoints to help constrain the parts.

I am not the best at explaining my workflow and the last work I did using this method would be huge to share

[kbear2AYYK]

You explained this quite well! Thank you! 

[pcrawley]

"Reuse" is a fantastic command - until you want to break the design up into FG subassemblies.  (I say FG subassemblies because they are created using the special "Demote to FG Subassembly - not the regular Demote function which breaks the link to the skeleton.)  If you go down the "Reuse" route, you can't later create FG subassemblies - it just doesn't work with reused frame members.

@kbear2AYYK - your summary of my answer is just about perfect 😂  

[mrB_Young]

I'm in the same boat.

[pcrawley]

@mrB_Young You may find it is worth a second look if the only thing you didn't like from the original FG was the file naming convention. Since around 2019 there have been tools to address that.  If you can't make up a naming convention from the functions available, then you must have some very complex requirements for what is essentially an extrusion.

[mrB_Young]

Thanks, I'll look in to that see if I can make it work.

[Mario.VanWiechen]

---

@pcrawley wrote:

"Reuse" is a fantastic command - until you want to break the design up into FG subassemblies.  (I say FG subassemblies because they are created using the special "Demote to FG Subassembly - not the regular Demote function which breaks the link to the skeleton.)  If you go down the "Reuse" route, you can't later create FG subassemblies - it just doesn't work with reused frame members.

@kbear2AYYK - your summary of my answer is just about perfect 😂  

---

I am on 2022 and have not seen "Demote to FG Subassembly" unless I missed it which would be more likely. LOL

But to me it looks like the type of feature that looks good on the improvement list but causes much more trouble than it is worth when used

We do a lot of platforms, catwalks and they all have handrails. Have done projects with 100+ handrail uprights. Having every one of them as a separate part would be painful

[pcrawley]

@Mario.VanWiechen - Try multi-selecting some frame members in the browser, then right-click and there’s the special demote function. 

Once demoted, you can open the subassemblies independently - not for further frame generator work, but great for drawing and cut lists.  As long as they remain in the main Frame subassembly, they’ll behave just like any other FG member.  You can, if you are careful, pattern and/or copy new instances of the subassemblies, and that can seriously speed up development of larger models. 

[cadman777]

There are many problems with no solutions using FG. One huge problem is, the FG doesn't work seamlessly w/basic Inventor. I never use demote to FG sub-assembly b/c you can't undo it once it's done. BIG PROBLEM over the life-cycle of a project where everything is in flux!

I only use the FG for things like railings b/c there are many parts. And it's easier to make a skeleton and populate it w/FG members instead of making one member at a time and then constructing the assembly (weldment) one piece at a time using constraints.

But when I need to make a trailer or something like that, I don't use the FG b/c of all the problems it has down-stream. File naming is only one of the many. Broken links to the skeleton and refusal to update on compound miters is a REAL PITA!

Instead, I do it one of two ways. One way is to make a master file part containing skeleton sketches with the absolute minimum amount of sketches, sketch entities and work features. Then derive that master file into each member and build one member at a time and tie it to the correct position using the derived sketch entity. That way the parts all automatically position where they're supposed to when brought into the assembly @ 0,0,0 (world coords). The other way is to make a similar master file with sketches and work features, and then manually make each discrete part as stand-alone, placing them from the C/C and modifying them to suit. Then bring the master file part into the assembly/weldment along with all the other parts, and then 'hang' each part on the correct master file sketch entity using assembly constraints. Then use arrays to duplicate the parts where needed. I use arrays for railing pickets all the time. And formulas in Parameters can be derived into the assembly and used to control the qty and distance of the assembly arrays, so if the assembly changes length (for example), the # and spacing of pickets will automatically adjust. Another challenge is knowing which duplicated parts get extra holes or cuts, so they have to be copied and modified. But once you have one part made, you can easily copy and modify it. You can easily change the size of it too by RMB and C/C change size.

Either way, there's no easy or simple method for doing this. But if you have categories of trailers that are similar, then you can make one general assembly for each type of trailer and them all into a library. Then when a new job arises for that type of trailer, you can copy the entire library set and change the names to suit your naming convention, and then modify the parts and assemblies as needed (overall lengths, widths and heights, etc). You can really speed up the process by making a custom library in the C/C that has all the parts populated with all the same iProperties and Parameters you need so when you make your BOM/PartsList it populates correctly for the most part with only minor scrubs needed.

Without knowing more of the details, that's the best I can offer by way of generalization.

[Mario.VanWiechen]

---

@pcrawley wrote:

@Mario.VanWiechen - Try multi-selecting some frame members in the browser, then right-click and there’s the special demote function. 

Once demoted, you can open the subassemblies independently - not for further frame generator work, but great for drawing and cut lists.  As long as they remain in the main Frame subassembly, they’ll behave just like any other FG member.  You can, if you are careful, pattern and/or copy new instances of the subassemblies, and that can seriously speed up development of larger models. 

---

Seems like making a view rep would be about the same work without losing the FG functionality. 

IMHO FG works well, the odd refusing to update glitch is painful but the functionality of FG has been worth it for me. I work on small to medium frames. If I did a really large one I would perhaps see it different. 

[kbear2AYYK]

These are all great suggestions and comments! We've tried a little of each with underwhelming results. I really do appreciate them!

However, here is my Feature Request to AUTODESK. 

In Frame Generator:

• After the frame is generated
  • User opens a new function (similar to Demote)
  • Inventor asks you to select "Like Items"
    
    • After items are selected,
      • Checks to see if item matches 3D envelope (fits in the same space).
        • Fail if item does not match 
      • Choice A - Save New Item Number and Location
        • Save as ipt (or iptfg)
          • (This item can be modified in a limited fashion (subtract only) to add bolt holes, etc.)
      • Choice B - Use existing item 
  • Close
  • Inventor adds this procedure to the History Tree 
  • Now your part lists are correct, your base part can modified, and reused in other assemblies. 

Easy! (For me to say at least)

[Mario.VanWiechen]

This is kinda general but but I would enjoy this forum if all I did was see how differently people use the same software, the crazy things ( to me grin ) they want Inventor to do and seeing how there actually can be 2-3 ways to do the same thing sometimes.

I am sure if some of you spent some time looking over my shoulder there would be more than a few WTF's. LOL

[cadman777]

Let me add this little tid-bit:
If you want to do structural work, then you're much better off doing it w/a structural steel app. The most cost effective one I've seen for general structural work is ParaBuild.

[Frederick_Law]

Another clickbait?

PS someone ate the bait