Motion Constraint Loop - Is this possible?

Motion Constraint Loop - Is this possible?

Anonymous
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Message 1 of 46

Motion Constraint Loop - Is this possible?

Anonymous
Not applicable

I noticed in my assemblies that the movements locked as soon as I closed a loop of rotational movement constraints, so, as I'm beginning, the doubts came to me:

 

Am I doing something wrong?
Am I doing something illogical?
Am I breaking some basic mechanics concept?
Is it a bug?

 

I have attached a simplified model (Acknowledgments and Credits to @EdilsonMJr) that isolates and illustrates the issue:

Motion Constraint Loop simplified modelMotion Constraint Loop simplified model
With the rotation constraint "Rotação:2" (shown in the pic) suppressed (Loop open), we have movements (by mouse or driving "Ânglulo:5"), with "Rotação:2" enabled (Loop closed) movements lock, intuitively "Rotação:2" should be enabled,  and exactly the lack of this produces wrong movements in my assemblies.

 

 

Could someone give a good technical explanation and clarify what is happening?

Every help is welcome!

 

Regards
GTI

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Message 41 of 46

jan_priban
Alumni
Alumni

Maybe better explanation on sketch with 4 gears (lines)

 

First gear position is given by dimension 30. Second gear position is given related to first (20), third gear position is given relative to second and fourth gear position is given relative to third. So far sketch had DOF = 0. I can change position of all gears ("rotate all gears in gear box") by change of 30. When I add relation/dimension between fourth and first (60) sketch gets over-constrained - similar to 4 gears in gear box. XY center/origin represents gear box (frame)

 

4 gears4 gears

 

Regards

 

Jan Priban

Message 42 of 46

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thank you @jan_priban!

 

I'm already very pleased with you because you have been the only one so far who has understood the essence of this issue and has tried to find this difficult answer.

 

I believe I understood everything you wrote.

 

What you've been writing is the same answer that all those experienced in Inventor, in their own way, respond, is the same as I observed before starting this thread: 

 

"A CONSTRAINT CLOSING A LOOP CAUSES OVER-CONSTRAINT THAT LOCKS MOVEMENTS".

 

1D and 2D Constraint1D and 2D ConstraintThe novelty you brought was that this occurs in 1D and 2D with was expected, showing that this behavior is intentional, not a BUG and is the working philosophy of Inventor.

 

You explained what an over-constraint is, but you did not explain why an over-constrain should cause problems in the Inventor environment.

 

Let's clarify and organize the objectives.

 

There are two distinct environments: The Inventor environments and the Real-World environments that the Inventor environments tries to simulate.

 

Your objective has been to show the workings of the Inventor environments and mine is to show that the Inventor environments is different from the Real-World environments because in the Real-World an over-constraint does not cause problems:

 

Lines supporting weightLines supporting weightFor example: YES, a line is enough to hang a weight, but in the Real-World we can have in parallel how many lines we want and I can define the length of any one, if we vary the lengths of these N lines, the weight will move and the position of the weight is defined by the shorter lines of the same length, if I cut (delete) a shorter, the next shorter ones take up the weight dynamically. I can vary/control/distribute the stresses on the lines by varying their lengths.

 

In the Inventor environment this is not possible with constraints.

 

In the Real-World the same occurs with four looped gears (as in the initial image of this thread), the angular position of each gear is defined by its two adjacent gears, each gear receives movement by two distinct paths that divide the forces of movement, this is an over-constraint in the Real-World and this does not cause problems and the movements are free, we continue with the same DOFs. If one gear is removed the other three still continue to rotate because it still has the other adjacent to transfer movement to it.

 

In the Inventor environment this is not possible with constraints.

 

I think my post 36 explanation is the truer one so far, that would imply that Autodesk should make corrections to the "Solver" Philosophy/Algorithms/Codes to get closer to being able to simulate the Real-World.

 

Please think more and see with your colleagues in Autodesk if there is any light, otherwise there are errors in Inventor algorithms that distances it from the Real-World.

 

Regards

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Message 43 of 46

jan_priban
Alumni
Alumni

Hello @Anonymous,

 

I see your point and agree there are two spaces, one is real-world and second one is mathematics/solver/software which tries to simulate/describe real-world as best as possible. Same as FEA - continuous material with distributed mass and stiffness is divided into mass only areas and stiffness only areas. It is approach, as best as possible, but still approach. Means gives results in many/most situations, but not always. That's why we (as humans) need to built and test real models as well.

 

Regards

 

Jan Priban

Message 44 of 46

Anonymous
Not applicable
Accepted solution

Great answer @jan_priban!

Thank you for your frankness, Autodesk has my admiration because of your nobility.

 

Let the perfect math out of it!

 

SWs and their simplified mathematics and errors are approximate and imperfect because they are made by primitive, limited, and imperfect humans.

 

Stephen Hawking, who is one more British-made farce like the royal wedding, also shows his imperfections, errors, envy and revolts with GOD, the perfect mathematical creator.

 

I would ask the atheist Stephen Hawking:

"If you believe that a whole massive and temporal universe (All) can be created spontaneously out of nothing without the need of a creator, why you do not believe that a simple massless and timeless creator could not have been created spontaneously from of nothing without the need of a creator and to exist before(1) the universe?"

 

1 - Before the universe, because it is timeless: dt = dx/dv => If there is no space dx, there is no time dt, but there is energy/creation potential. Example: We can have electrical voltage without electric current.

 

Certainly, the paradoxical Stephen Hawking would not know how to respond.

 

Lets go to what matters. Here is the solution to this thread:

 

Motion Constraint Loop - Is this possible?

 

@jan_priban  showed us in the posts 27/34/41 that:

 

Do not.
"A MOTION CONSTRAINT CLOSING A LOOP CAUSES OVER-CONSTRAINT THAT LOCKS MOVEMENTS" and an over-constraint is a mathematical artifice that creates problems and locks up movements only in the Inventor environment very different from behavior in the real-world environment where an over-constraint causes no problem.

 

But @TheCADWhisperer  showed in post 24 an alternative solution where a loop is possible using 3D Contact Joints.

 

It's anti-natural and very uncomfortable to live with this artificial over-constraint in the Inventor environment, Autodesk could study a way to improve and us get rid of the problems created by over-constraint.

 

If you @jan_priban  realized that an over-constraint should not create problems and this should be fixed, then I consider that my efforts were helpful to the Autodesk community.

 

Thank you all!

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Message 45 of 46

TheCADWhisperer
Consultant
Consultant

@Anonymouswrote:

But @TheCADWhisperer  showed in post 24 an alternative solution where a loop is possible using 3D Contact Joints.

 

It's anti-natural and very uncomfortable to live with this artificial over-constraint in the Inventor environment...


I am not convinced that you understand the real issue.

If you want to replicate the real world in a virtual digital prototype - you have to replicate the real world.

 

In the real world we cannot make perfect parts, and even if we could they would not work (unless we also made allowances for clearance).

 

Imagine a hole, the boundary made up of soldiers.  We will call these soldiers - Atoms.

Now these soldiers are standing shoulder to shoulder as close as then can on a mathematically perfect 10mm circle.

 

Now imagine another army of soldiers - this time forming the boundary of a cylinder exactly 10mm diameter.

We will also call the soldiers in the army - Atoms.

 

The Army of Cylinder Atoms cannot penetrate the Army of Hole Atoms as they both occupy an exactly 10mm circle.

Soldiers on one side or the other will have to give way for the Cylinder to penetrate the Hole.

 

In my 3D contact example I modeled real world clearance - not "perfect" geometry.

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Message 46 of 46

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi teacher @TheCADWhisperer,

 

Thank you!

 

I do not understand why you wrote this post, but come on.

 


@TheCADWhispererescreveu:
I am not convinced that you understand the real issue.

Do not doubt, I do not understand.

 


@TheCADWhispererescreveu:
If you want to replicate the real world in a virtual digital prototype - you have to replicate the real world.

 

In the real world we cannot make perfect parts, and even if we could they would not work (unless we also made allowances for clearance).

I agree with you, we can be much more accurate within an SW that in practice. We have to put within the SW the imperfections of the practical world.

 


@TheCADWhispererescreveu: 

The Army of Cylinder Atoms cannot penetrate the Army of Hole Atoms as they both occupy an exactly 10mm circle.

No need to talk about Army, I will not say that the Royal Wedding was a farce that uses a innocent victim to disguise the British racism shown to the world in Brexit. Cat Very Happy

 

I know that in classical mechanics (Physics), two bodies can not simultaneously occupy the same place in space. It is a property of matter, Impenetrability. If the hole has a Radius = 10mm, the cylinder to penetrate it must have a radius smaller than 10mm.

 

In Inventor, a 10mm cylinder penetrates 10mm hole without interference, I imagine this is a constructive allowances for clearance to simplify and work, over-constraint is a destructive allowances for clearance that prevents the assembly from functioning properly.

 


@TheCADWhispererescreveu: 

In my 3D contact example I modeled real world clearance - not "perfect" geometry.


This is what you said in post 15.

 

When I said "Perfection" in my post 35,

 

"The bevel gears were beautiful. The assembly also looked beautiful, very well done. Elegant techniques. For me it was a perfection that gives pleasure to admire."

 

about your assembly of post 24 I did compliments (beautiful, well done, Elegant and perfection), I did not say that your geometry was perfect.

 

Regards

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