Inventor for Woodworkers - Joinery, Millwork and Cabinetry Design Accelerators

[PaulMunford]

I've created this post to give a little more room to a discussion that I've been having with @ScottMoyse on Twitter.

If you are using Autodesk Inventor in the Building trades - specifically for Woodwork, what design accelerators, features, tools or functions would you like to have in Inventor? Not the mundane stuff that everyone could use, but specific stuff that could be rolled into an 'Inventor for Woodworkers' type addin.

I hope that the point of this thread will be to demonstrate the desirability of such a plugin. One position that Scott and I disagree on is WHO would provide this sort of service.

I am of the opinion that Autodesk doesn't do a lot of industry specific tool sets. Instead, they provide their API for free and let third party programmers provide these sort of products. The most popular third party products (or those that can be seen to have cross industry benefits) are often bought up by Autodesk and included in the main product.

I am also keen to explore how some of us are using and adapting Inventor's current toolset for Joinery detailing.

Finally, If you are not using Autodesk Inventor perhaps you would like to point out great features in other software titles that you would like to see in Inventor.

(If you are an Autodesk Inventor addin programmer who is looking for an Idea for a new product - perhaps this thread will be interesting to you!)

[PaulMunford]

The Bolted connection generator is an excellent tool that I use almost daily. Whilst the standard OOTB set up doesn't come with any Wood screws' it is possible to add your own content to the content centre for inclusion in the Bolted Connection Generator.

Here's a tutorial on how it's done:

http://civil2inventor.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/publish-content-for-bolted-connection/

While it's plainly possible to do - it doesn't look easy 😐 A publishing Wizard from Autodesk would be very helpful here!

It probably wouldn't be to hard for a third party programmer to put together a set of fixings and a Thread.xls that could be loaded into Inventor via an addin.

[PaulMunford]

This is very similar to the bolted connection generator. I don't see why a range of Woodworking dowels couldn't be added in the same way as the bolted connection generator.

[PaulMunford]

Inventor's connection generators rely on the base feature being a hole. Connections such as Biscuits and Knock down fittings could never be added to Inventor's Design accelerators.

Using the current toolset the way to achiever this would be to create an iFeature for the Non Circular hole, an iPart for the Fitting, and iMates to bring them all together.

While I'm sure that this content could easily be combined and autoloaded via an addin, it would be pretty nice if this process could be packaged as a connection generator - just like the Bolted connection and the Dowelled connection generators.

[PaulMunford]

The frame generator is another excellent time saving tool that I use frequently. Adding custom content to the frame generator is pretty easy. I have added stock Softwood rails to the Frame generator, as well as a number of aluminum extrusions that we use frequently.

I haven't added Hardwood Mouldings to the frame generator, because we don't have a standard  range to work from.

I am sure that Timber content for the frame generator could easily be created by a third party and autoloaded with an add-in. The only trick would be who's content would you base it on - as there are no ISO, ASME, JIS type standards for Timber mouldings. 

[PaulMunford]

In place features can be used to create various edge treatments on an Inventor part.

• The Fillet tool creates Fillets, Rounds and Bull noses.
• The Chamfer tool can be used to create Chamfers and Bevels.
• The Lip Tool can be used to create rebates and Housings.

If you have a range of standard cutting knives or router bits that you use for applying mouldings to your Millwork, then iFeatures will handle more complex profiles than Inventor's standard in place features. Yu can also use iFeatures to create stopped Chamfers (you can kind of do this with the Lip tool - but not with Chamfers and Fillets).

However, it would be really nice if the Inventor API allowed access to the in place feature profiles so that a third party programmer could add ther own.

[PaulMunford]

It would be very helpful if Inventor could create panels that are assciated to a skeleton model in the same way that the frame generator works. I have set this up manually with a  multibody part and a set of derived parts in an assembly. But it would be great if this was automated.

http://cadsetterout.com/inventor/inventor-for-woodworkers-sketching-keep-it-simple/

[guyh]

Hi guys.  Interesting thread and not one I would normally have had any input in seeing as my company deal with extruded aluminium profiles, plastics components and rubber gaskets but never timber.  I've been helping a friend with a project he's started.  He's getting into building timber structures and I showed him some of the work I do.  I wanted to show him how we could produce a cutting list for this timber because he was trying to work it all out by hand!

Anyway this is the result so far (see attached).  We still have work to do on it.  I used the Frame Generator for this and had a go at one joint just as an example of how we could work.  Maybe as I get some questions I can throw them at the experts here?  It's fun learning for me.

Cheers,

Guy

[guyh]

---

@PaulMunford wrote:

It would be very helpful if Inventor could create panels that are assciated to a skeleton model in the same way that the frame generator works. I have set this up manually with a  multibody part and a set of derived parts in an assembly. But it would be great if this was automated.

http://cadsetterout.com/inventor/inventor-for-woodworkers-sketching-keep-it-simple/

---

This is something I was thinking about yesterday doing some work on the shed I have attached.  Also could there be a requirement for timber slat type panels?  defined sizes which will fill a panel area?

[PaulMunford]

The Holy Grail for any Woodworking Draughter is the Automatic generation of the Length, Width and Thickness of the parts in the assembly (The part Envelope). This is beacuse no-one likes booking up! And the shop don't like it when they have to cut items twice because they don't fit.

It's pretty easy to add a Length, Width and Thickness as a driven dimension or parameter into a Libray part or iPart (And the Frame generator provides this function pretty neatly) However this can get pretty tedious if you have a lot of one-off bespoke parts to create - particularly if you generated those parts automatically using the 'Make Components' tool.

Another technique is to use Brian Eakins SheetMetalExtents plugin, which gets uses the ability of the Sheet metal envoironment to get the extents of the part. This is pretty easy to set up and use. The only downside is that the sheet metal envoironment creates a second body inside the part file, which adds to the size of the part files and the final Assembly.

http://blogs.rand.com/manufacturing/2009/01/sheet-metal-extentsextents.html

The API call for part extents doesn't acount for the orientation of the part. It is probably possible to get the parts extentts byusing the face extents object of a part and workign it out from there. This would take a bit of coding from someone who knows what they are doing!

[PaulMunford]

Nice Job Guy! I've been meaning to do some more Demo's for Timber framing. The frame generator makes it so easy!

I guess that this highlights something that would be a great addition to the Frame generator - User generated end conditions. Or at least a set of basic set of Mortise and Tennon, bridal Joint e.t.c.

Currently, the best way of adding the joints that I can think of would be using iFeatures. The only problem that I can think if you change the size of the Frame part, a new part filke could be generated, which would delete your iFeature end treatment.

Hmm, that's got me thinking...

[PaulMunford]

Maybe iCopy would be good for Slatted panels? Maybe it would work for regular panels too?

Hmm, something else to try out...

[guyh]

Cheers Paul,  Glad you liked the work so far.  The Frame Generator struck me as the best tool for the job.  The end conditions is the area I had to think about.  In the end I used the trim to face tool and a minus figure to give me the length of the timber and then allow me to remove the areas to create the joints.  If there was a way to build up a library of joints but also have the relevant cut applied to the intersecting profiles this would really speed up the job.  iFeatures struck me as the tool to look at currently but I just used simple extrusions with projected geometry to creat the joint I have detailed.

I have also used the notch tool which does a great job in simple cases but I am sure the notch to match the timber frame which sits in it would require some tolerance.  The notch tool does not provide that option.  The notch tool also has one major flaw which I've experienced with my work using aluminium extrustions.  It will notch and leave bits of the frame profiles effective unattached to the main frame profile.  In this case it should give the option to remove the 'floating' parts. 

cheers,

Guy

[PaulMunford]

If an Automated Cutlist is the Holy Grail for Assemblies - then the next most important would be an automatically generated materials order/requisition (Because no-one likes doing those either!).

Using Inventor's part's list roll up options, it's pretty easy to calculate the running length for Timber rails. However Panel products are a little more tricky. It is possible to automatically calculate a square meterage, but not the actual quanity of boards needed.

This is because the number of sheets you need depends on the size of the boards you are starting with, the size of the panels you need to end up with and the grain direction of the timber. The process of working this all out is know as Optimization.

There are a number of great products out there that will help you to calculate this sort of thing. To my knowlege there are none that will work directly with Inventor parts, Assemblies or BOM's or that work inside Inventor itself. So far, all the optimization products that I've seen would require you to output an Excel spreadsheet which would then be imported into your optimizer.

Any one found an oprimizer that works with Inventor?

[PaulMunford]

Akin to Optimization is nesting. Optimization deals with square cut panels. Nesting deals with odd shaped panels that will be cut using a CNC machine. The plan here is to maximize sheet use by placing as many parts onto the sheet as possible. 

There are a numbe of sheet metal companies who provide nesting programs for Inventor. These ar probaly unnecesarily powerfull for Joinery work.

A number of stanalone CNC programes have this sort of functionality. Then, then only question that remains is how to get you profiles out of Inventor!

[PaulMunford]

I live and work in the UK, and there isn't a lot of UK supplier conent out ther for Autodesk Inventor. Whether it's Hinges, Knock Down fittings or Draw slides, we spend a lot of time modeling Library components.

Maybe we sould have something like this for Inventor!

http://www.bimstore.co.uk/

[scottmoyse]

I agree with you here, I definitely think i should make some effort with custom content for the bolted connection generator. Unfortunately we don't use dowels very often. I suppose you may be able to make dominoes work with the CC, which are a nice combination of dowels and biscuits. You get great precision with dominoes but sometimes you want the 'sloppiness' of biscuits for the obligatory fudge factor often needed with timber. Although we steer clear from both dominoes and biscuits where ever possible. Screws & Glue are 'fool proof' when it comes to strength & longevity.

We could make some use of screws, we currently include pilot holes, this may allow us to take it to the next level.

For us I'm not sure supporting a content center for Screws, dowels and maybe dominoes is really worth the effort.

Sure Frame generator uses it and we can create custom timber profiles for cleats etc. I have issues with the messy way in which frame generator organises itself in both file naming and folder structure. Absolutely hideous IMO. However, I'm assured by some people this can be tidied up but involves manually naming each individual part. Which in my book reduces its effectiveness. I had a play around with it about 12 months ago and decided its a waste of time, maybe its time i had another look. Another negative for the frame generator is due to the OOTB naming conventions it uses, it doesn't play well with Vault at all. A big Boo Boo from Autodesk.

[scottmoyse]

---

@PaulMunford wrote:

Inventor's connection generators rely on the base feature being a hole. Connections such as Biscuits and Knock down fittings could never be added to Inventor's Design accelerators.

---

you're right, thats dominos out the window.

---

@PaulMunford wrote:

Using the current toolset the way to achiever this would be to create an iFeature for the Non Circular hole, an iPart for the Fitting, and iMates to bring them all together.

---

Trouble with this is iMates can become extremely cumbersome to manage with multiple iFeatures & iPart scenarios etc. I haven't had much luck with them in actual work flows. Have you used them in anger? Since that is always the acid test for that kind of thing.

---

@PaulMunford wrote:

While I'm sure that this content could easily be combined and autoloaded via an addin, it would be pretty nice if this process could be packaged as a connection generator - just like the Bolted connection and the Dowelled connection generators.

---

This is the great thing about the tools included in Misler Topsolid. You choose the type of connection, the number of them and the two parts that need connecting the software does the rest.

I assume the dowelled connection generator you refer to is the bolted connection generator using a custom CC (dowel) part?

[scottmoyse]

You can achieve this kind of thing with adaptive 'Copy, paste, rename' library parts. I Bulk copy & rename these puppies, you can then either use them adaptively in an assembly, constraining them to a skeletal part. However, I found placing them into an assembly and constraining, vs deriving the skeletal part into the copied library part and constraining the base sketch didn't make much difference. I prefer the 2nd option since you can then insert n fix/ground n root into the assembly and i think everything is a lot easier to manage later on. You can include all kinds of clever things into these parts, depending on what they are used for, but i don't want to give too much away here. Some of that clever stuff you can't do with sheet metal parts.. maybe a private conversation for that one Paul.

[scottmoyse]

again nice work Guy.

the end treatments are lacking in the frame generator, you should also be able to create end treatments on pipe instead of beign limited to box section or bar.

---

@PaulMunford wrote:

I guess that this highlights something that would be a great addition to the Frame generator - User generated end conditions. Or at least a set of basic set of Mortise and Tennon, bridal Joint e.t.c.

---

This is one of the things I immediately identified as a short fall in the frame generator for wood working purposes. I would tear someones arm off for this kind of flexibility in all of Autodesks design accelerators.