Idea to create standard guardrails (with correct BOM items)

[tuliobarata]

Guys, could anyone give me some idea of how to make a part or even an assembly for guardrails with all the correct items in the BOM, and that I could easily change its length ?

For now I'm creating 3D sketchs, using frame generator for the bars and pipes, a normal plate (part) for the bottom and then another part for the inside mesh, doing that i can get the correct BOM, but in another words, a lot of work when my equipment have many different guardrails, its a substantial cost/time doing that depending on the equipment.

If I could just create a part with more than one item for the BOM would be great, but I think it's no possible.

So, is there any way of easily work with guardrails on Inventor ?

This is my clients standard :

And this is one that I've made, unfortunately with 3 different lengths in the same guardrail - Still need to create the mesh for them.

Thanks. 

Tulio Barata

[arron.craig]

Maybe something like this would be a good starting point?

https://grabcad.com/library/autodesk-inventor-ilogic-driven-handrail-1

[tuliobarata]

Thanks @arron.craig ,

I don't know if I understood right, but in that case Jason uses iLogic to change some parameters in the own assembly and suppress/visible components ? But what about to use the same file/set of files for various types of handrails (or only for different lengths)? Would I have to copy manually each set and rename all the files ?

I was thinking now, but honestly I don't know if I'm thinking to much and getting only bad ideas.

Is that possible to create new parts and then parameters in these new parts from a main assembly ?

i.e. I have my template with only two files: 1 - part with my handrail 3d model/ file name: HR_01.IPT and 2 - assembly with that part inside, where I put the length required in some parameter/file name: HR_01.IAM.  In the main assembly (HR_01.IAM) I would just run an iLogic code to create more 5 blank parts only with the custom parameters I need to get in the BOM (those parts would be the bars, plates, meshs, etc). These files would have a sequential name like HR_02, HR_03...etc..

So, is that possible to create files like that and even manage the parameters inside them from another file ? Is this a feasible option? What do you think ?

If possible, i think would be easier since I would have to copy and rename only 2 files for each type of handrail.

Thanks.

[gcoombridge]

I have stanchions and bends authored in content centre. Each has workpoints placed at the point where the top rail or mid rail passes through them. I then use frame generator to place the main rails between the points rather than using sketch curves.

We do railing for industrial sites so there is no mesh infill and decoration is kept to a minimum... 

[cadman777]

I've done what you want to do, but never figured out an 'easy' way to do it. This is where Inventor is of ZERO HELP, b/c it has NO TOOLS for doing this, nor is it programmed for this kind of thing (unlike structural steel software which has this built into the database).

The key is to reuse all the same parts across all assemblies and use Work Features (or a derived sketch) to drive the changes in size inside your assembly. You must do all this  manually for the First assembly (weldment), which includes making a perfect drawing for that assembly. But once you're set up, you can easily copy the assembly + drawing, and replace the members that need replacing, then scrub your drawing. It's quite boring once you get to it, b/c the same things need changing every time. That when I wish I was a Coder(!) or could use iLogic to do it (who's gonna pay me to waste time doing that for one job?). So first make sure your first weldment is totally correct, along with its drawing, then start duplicating.

Probably the simplest way to duplicate them is to use an Adaptive part for the parts that change inside the assembly. Since I don't have the Piping Module, that's how I've always done piping. Sure, it's more work AT FIRST, but when changes come down the line, it's fairly easy to make those changes and GUARANTEE things won't 'break', or that you won't have to struggle with WORK-AROUNDS or any of that headache and aggravation.

So, the way I do that is to make a part (like one of your top rails), and make the Length (Extrusion) Adaptive.

Then, every time you need a new size, just start the Replace command, and copy that part inside the file dialogue browser, rename it, and select it for the replacement. The entire part remains the same, except only the length changes. Once you manually set it into the assembly, you don't have to worry about re-constraining it or anything else, b/c it's essentially the same part. Then just change the MARK NO for your BOM. When you do it like that, you only have to worry about changing the parts that change size, and all the other parts remain the same. It's the 'leanest' way I found to do that.

I've done the same kind of project using the FrameGenerator, but found it to be WAY too much trouble doing the 'copy-and-replace' procedure, b/c of the underlying Wireframe that the FG parts attach to. You have to comb through your BOM to find all the same parts of different length, and make sure they have different MARK NO's. And you also have to make sure all the COMMON parts are in the same folder, which presents problems when you do the 'copy-and-replace' procedure. The BOM is where all the work occurs. Structural steel programs do all this SORTING of part for you!

As far as work-flow, I would make every panel as a flat/planar assembly, then join them all in annother higher level assembly with the 90° elbows attaching them like you have. That way, you can have maybe 2 kinds of assemblies: 1. stand-alone planar weldments, and 2. planar weldments that have welded end joints. Or you can have any number of kinds of assemblies depending on the requirements, such as arc weldments (instead of planar), stairs railings, etc.

[tuliobarata]

@gcoombridge  thanks, I agree about the details, that doesn't matter in most cases, I could use just a plate with a "clear" appearance and that would be ok since the BOM is correct with the mesh.

I'm trying to avoid to use frame generator because, in my case at least, takes too much time depending on the platform, stair, etc.

[tuliobarata]

@cadman777 thanks,

would be great to use advanced steel for that, but here I have to do 100% in Inventor, so i can't escape from that...

I've tried 2  ways with frame generator: make all the rails from zero with 3d sketchs and then use the FG, and use templates with pre defined FG parts, but is too much trouble to copy and rename them all, as you said.

I was reading some iLogic stuffs trying to figure out how to create parts from an assembly, and I just found the VIRTUAL COMPONENTS.. never heard about it before. Would be that a solution for this case ? Is that possible to edit the custom properties of a virtual component using iLogic ?

In my mind this is a feasible solution (of course, if possible to edit the custom properties of the virtual components and even of a part with iLogic). In this way each kind (with or without side bends ou even a single handrail) would have only TWO files: the assembly with the virtual components plus the iLogic code, and a part with the "visual 3d model",  in this case I know I can't import parameters from the main assembly (cyclic dependency), but if possible to use iLogic to update parameters value in the part from the main assembly, I would get the 3d model adjusted and everything would work great.

This way I would have to copy and rename only two files for each handrail ! Comparing the way I make them nowadays, would be perfect and very fast  !! 

What do you think guys ?

Thank  again.

[cadman777]

@tuliobarata 

Sorry I can't comment on using Virtual Components, b/c I never use them.

The challenge is managing:

1. Railings with one OR multiple stanchions

2. Railings with end connections (e.g., corners)

3. Railings on stairs (stand-alone or with connections)

4. ...I've tried using Inventor to do this, but found it to be impossible.

5. Use iLogic to create assemblies of various kinds (I have no idea how to do this).

I tried doing this in Tekla, and found the same problem.

Every kind of software has its limitations.

My best solution was to create a library of TYPES of Railings, and then set them up so you can change only a few Parameters and the whole thing updates. After the update, the only parts that change are the ones that are affected by the dimensional change. But still, you have to fight the COPY-AND-RENAME process.

[gcoombridge]

@tuliobarata Virtual components could do what you are asking for but its not an elegant solution. They are intended for processes or costs associated with an assembly that do not have a physical geometry - i.e. coatings like galvanising. You could use ilogic to generate them, create iproperties and they will appear in your BOM. They won't associate with an item when you come to balooning them but there is a work around for this. None of this seems like good practice to me - just a way of circumventing the parts-assembly relationship.

I diagree with @cadman777 that Inventor doesn't have any tools for doing this kind of modelling, they're just broad workflows - after all it is a general product design software. (Not to say I wouldn't like to see some expanision of frame generator to include bolted steel connections!). If Inventor did have a handrailing module (like the very rudimentary one in Plant3D) this thread would be about how the detailing doesn't match client requirements instead. There are no doubt dozens of different standards globally for doing this and an infinite number of detailing options...

Workflows I would recommend:

• As mentioned above here is a sample of my method. All the images in the first screen shot are CC parts (that are saved as custom and have ilogic enchancements - but this is note required). Note the workpoints. These parts can be constrained in a regular way. Next I run horizontal railing between the workpoints. Save. Done...

• Make a multisolid part configuration that can be adjusted with ilogic or just manually adjusted. You could also just have a one bay, two bay etc.. model. Then save out the solids and re-assemble. This requires some additional work with iproperty values, whether they are created by code or manually.
• Derive a frame sketch skeleton between each of the parts which gives sizing, lengths and the geometry for the mesh. This would be my preferred method without frame generator.
• Technically tube and pipe can be used and it can output an XYZ format for tube bending which may appeal to some people - see this link: Random Stuff: Handrail with Tube and Pipe (ads-sol.com). You would still need to have something to attach the line to like standard stanchions perhaps.
• Make an assembly driven configuration model with ilogic. 
• Try iCopy (I have no experience with this and it doesn't seem very popular on the forum as a discussion point).
• Adaptivity - personally I haven't found this very stable and have avoided it since 2010 or so...

All in all you probably only need the geometry of the horizontal rails and the mesh to be adjusted for each design - the rest is just constraints. The remaining models can be standard parts. In terms of copying assemblies within the same project,  I use iLogicDesignCopy to do this:

[cadman777]

I agree that Adrian does some very nice things w/T&P!

But I doubt it's not the right tool for this job.

Besides, not all of us have T&P.

Your Stanchion method is a lot like Tekla (or at least the older Tekla).

The thing I hate about Tekla is, if you have to change your model, the whole thing breaks, esp. on stairs HR!

Not so w/your system (a plus).

Looks like it's a decent solution.

So tell us how you locate your Stanchions to fit an existing scenario?

Say you have a process plant you need to fit handrail to (like say around 100 tons of handrail).

How do you go about fitting the HR to all the platforms, stairs, equipment, vessels, etc.?

And how many scenarios do you have to accommodate all the connections points on the machinery and all the finer details, such as where ladders meet them on wrap-around railings on tanks, or on floor to platform ladders, etc.?

Also, do you have a library like this for ladders?

[gcoombridge]

@cadman777 I definitely agree on the tube and pipe - that causes enough trouble just using it for what it was intended! Regarding moving things it just tends to require a rebuild all to jog FG, which I seem to use so often I have a hotkey.

I place them using a copy of the platform frame sketch or simply constrain them to the the framing members. Then constrain the custom bends to the drilled centers of the stanchions. For stairs I have an angle parameter (in both the stanchions and custom bends) that I link to the angle of the stairways from horizontal. Ladders I use very rarely.

[cadman777]

Thanx for your explanation.

Looks like a good system!

[tuliobarata]

Thanks guys, I had to travel for some days and I just saw the replies.

Unfortunately in this case I had to do the rails manually using 3D sketch for the main pipes, 2d sketchs/planes for the bars and L profiles (inside the rails), for the bottom plate I had to create one part for each different lenght and constrain them...just for the mesh I've created virtual components in the main assemblies with the correct total area, but no 3d model was created for them, so I agree its not an elegant solution because in the drawing I had to override a balloon number and I cant see the real mesh appearence in the 3d model.

For now that was the "solution" according to the project schedule, now I'm gonna try make all the templates to save time in the next project.

Again, agree that virtual component is not an elegant solution just because of the balloon override, despite I believe it would be the fastest way of doing standard guardrails. I believe if I study a bit more of iLogic I will be able to create some better templates like yours, lets see (today at least Ill just try to insert custom iPorperties in the virtual component using iLogic)

Thanks!

And just as curiosity, this is the final equipment I had to model and detail, I have there 17 differents types/lenghts of handrails:

[tyas.swinnen]

This picture (and more) seem perfect for @-niels- 's "Friday pictures 1-29-'21"  topic  😉

[cadman777]

Side note:

If you want to add iLogic to part in your project, MegaJerk made CodeInjector to do that. Here's the link:

https://github.com/MegaJerk/iLogicCodeInjector

I believe he coded it in C#.

He was a 'hero' in here during the time he spent helping everybody with his expert skills.

This little FREE app will save you the trouble of manually inserting the iLogic Rules, one file at a time.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work in my 2010 version of iLogic!

So I have to go the long way around the barn to get this job done!