New user - Raster & Terrain Questions

[Anonymous]

Venturing into the world of Infraworks, so bear with me.

Used model building to start my model, it brought in the normal terrain elevation raster and ground imagery.

I removed the ground imagery and imported my own geotiff.

I imported a shapefile of contours as terrain data.

The terrain updated to reflect the new contour data, ground image drapes over it fine.

Why, if I turn off the initial elevation raster (imported from model building) the whole terrain and ground image goes away.  

Can I not build a surface/terrain from just the contours?

How can I make the ground image transparent to see pipes below? 

I've read a few different answers to this but they all seem to point to buttons that are no longer there in 2018

[SethHall]

After reading through your post, I am not completely clear on what your workflow goal is here. Are you trying to create a composite surface with the contour data and the model builder terrain? If that is the case, you can export the model builder terrain to C3D via IMX and paste the surfaces together in C3D. You can then bring them back into InfraWorks as a single surface.

Surface Opacity is controlled in the Views: http://help.autodesk.com/view/INFMDR/ENU/?guid=GUID-7EA8F78C-CCDE-47C9-8D62-61B1DE5AA609 This link is for the current version. If you have an older version the controls may be in a different location. Which version are you using?

[JamesMaeding]

If using model builder, I would export the surface as IMX and pull it back in.

That way you can pull into a c3d surface and manipulate if desired.

Not sure if you can extract the ground image, and load back, but use MOBAC to get large stitched images.

I pull the images into acad and line up with some large base, then use a lisp to make the world file. No c3d/map needed.

I don't use modelbuilder, as dem's and better data are available online and adesk keeps removing features from the IW LT version.

The shapefile thing is just an odd way to do things.

If you want stable IW models, stick to imx or rasters for the surface. I think you did hit a bug with shapefiles, good luck getting that fixed.

[JamesMaeding]

@SethHall

If IW offers terrain from shapefile, it should work.

I don't like telling people they must learn C3D to use IW in a stable manner but I think its true.

Hope you have C3D and know how to use it @Anonymous

If you do, IW really is slick and handles lots of data well.

[Anonymous]

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@SethHall wrote:

After reading through your post, I am not completely clear on what your workflow goal is here. Are you trying to create a composite surface with the contour data and the model builder terrain? If that is the case, you can export the model builder terrain to C3D via IMX and paste the surfaces together in C3D. You can then bring them back into InfraWorks as a single surface.

Surface Opacity is controlled in the Views: http://help.autodesk.com/view/INFMDR/ENU/?guid=GUID-7EA8F78C-CCDE-47C9-8D62-61B1DE5AA609 This link is for the current version. If you have an older version the controls may be in a different location. Which version are you using?

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No composite. I'd like to get rid of the model builder data completely.  Problem is, when I do all my terrain & imported ground image go away.  

Maybe I should start fresh and not even use model builder? 

But out of curiosity, why would the shapefile data be reflected in the terrain I see, but not be displayed at all when model builder terrain was removed? It's like it stitched them together automatically.

And thanks, finally found the Surface Opacity control.

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

@SethHall

If IW offers terrain from shapefile, it should work.

I don't like telling people they must learn C3D to use IW in a stable manner but I think its true.

Hope you have C3D and know how to use it @Anonymous

If you do, IW really is slick and handles lots of data well.

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I'm a Civil3D master... in my own mind. But have been using it for about a decade.

I really do like IW so far and what I've read about it.  It's like ArcMAP and Civil3D had a baby.

There was a option for terrain from shapefile controus.  And I was able to see the terrain on screen update to reflect the contours.  But if I remove the model builder terrain, all terrain and ground images go away.  I was thinking it stitched the data together automatically, but from the responses that doesn't seem like how it works.

How should it work if you load up two different elevation sets? Should you see both on top of each other?  Does ground imagery just drape over the highest points at all locations?  I didn't see any options to tie a ground image to a particular elevation set.

[JamesMaeding]

@Anonymous

Multiple elevation sets, or "surfaces" work fine in IW, normally.

In fact, you can easily switch between existing and proposed by turning off proposed surface and image.

I think you are seeing a bug.

I bet few people use shapefile contours for surfaces, so the bugs have not been shaken out, and why bother with exotic workflows anyway?

I have done about 20 good size models, and many more small ones and here is what I do:

(this all works in the LT version btw. I don't care about the "design" stuff they are trying to do that should have been made to work in civil3d in the first place...)

0) never use model builder 🙂

1) pull in about 4 USGS DEM's in project area. Use UTM27-11 as system. They are free and easy to locate by using a index map in google earth or other means.

1a)pull in any geotiffs or rasters of existing surface as desired. I don't mean aerial image, these images are like height maps.

1b) import any shapefile data into acad using map, and elevate the contours based on the "object data". Look on forums to see how, its a two step process but I did a lisp to make it one step. Cant share it though, sorry. Build a surface from the 3d contours and export as imx.

2) Using Mobile Atlas Creator, and google earth images as source, select the big area of the dem's and download the image stitched from the tiles. Use .png and .map format (oziexplorer).  It shows how many tiles are needed for the zoom level selected, don't go over say 3000. This is all legal, you will be under their download limitation per day. You can also choose other sources as MOBAC is like a general tool that hooks to any source you configure. MOBAC is free, and I will explain the configuration later.

3) Select an area in MOBAC that is smaller, closer to project, and pick higher zoom level for higher res image.

4) open acad and line up the images to correct coordinates by hand. Use a base or project topo to do so. You could also use the .map file, as it has lat lon coords of the corners. If you know how to translate to project coords, you can use those. I think you can also use MOBAC to get image and world file. Never tried that but might be right in front of me. Not sure what system the world file is.

5) use the lisp attached to make world file for both

6) for proposed surface, make in civil3d and export to imx

7) for proposed image, plot your grading/site in acad to pdf. Convert the pdf to image using adobe or other converter.

8) open the image in GIMP (free), set mode to rgb, add alpha layer, draw fence around outside of grading, invert selection, delete outside pixels. Export the image as png, it will keep the transparent pixels.

9) pull that png into acad and line up, make world file.

10) pull all into IW, the imx and images will use project coord system so set that.

11) if houses are desired on lots, that involves makeing a dwg with blocks of footprints. You export the blocks to shapefile. In IW, pull them in as a coverage (? I forget...) but you can use a script to say "place houses at block locations". You can research that if you want, we do it on about 1/2 of projects and it saves a TON of time compared to placing each one by hand. House definitions are pulled in using fbx from sketchup or other sources.

That is it. Imx, geotiff, images, 3d houses from fbx.

No model builder which is likely just USGS dem which is bottom of the barrel for quality.

Locating good surface data is an ongoing learning curve for all of us though.

I also attached the google earth mapsource for MOBAC. Throw it in the mapsources folder for MOBAC.

It needs updating now and then, as google changes the urls a bit about every 4 months. 

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the helpful hints.  Yes, finding data is an ongoing search.

I used a shapefile of contours to build the terrain because that is what the city provided, and it had a greater detail level than USGS and other available data.

Eventually we will have full on the ground survey, but we are in the initial stages of this project.

Same for imagery, city provided us with some that was a better resolution than anything else I could find online.

I noticed IW gave the option to build it's terrain directly form shapefile controus. Same as you would in civil3d, import and define elevation via the attached data.

It seems to work fine since I've started without model builder data. It very well may have been a bug.

Is there an option to associate one image with a specific terrain, when you have more than one?

Can I ask, how are you specifically using IW in your workflow?  Are you creating exhibits? Using it for design help or coordination with others?  I'm still trying to figure out the best way to integrate it into our workflow. Right now, I'm going to be making concept proposal exhibits.

[JamesMaeding]

@Anonymous

For the image association, I would say no, except that I think what you want is accomplished through proposals.

I have not used that much, but think you can make states of combinations of data.

I wonder if that vastly increases your model file size, as it would have to cache a set of data for each state....

as for how I use IW, its many things.

First is general project visualization for designers and managers to see what they are doing.

Then for clients to decide if they like a design. We do earthwork on our grading studies so I usually have some rough 3d linework to use for proposed.

Then for builders who are deciding if they buy some chunks of streets from master developers, and how good the views are.

I'll sometimes have four builders come in an look at the same area to decide on bid prices.

Then for utility coordination, as we have what I consider the best tools for modeling utils/conduit, and keeping updated.

One of my models is shown here:

http://www.xyht.com/civiltransportation/the-need-for-civil-bim-level-objects/

We also use IW for final utility "furniture" coordination. We shift transformers and so on, so all trees have to be shown, and vaults and things with clearance areas in 3d.

I also use navisworks, and unity for visualizations. Unity is tricky and I do not have the kinks worked out.

I will soon though as I have tools to both divide surface tris into regions, and merge images and chop into tiles.

One thing I have noticed with utility coordination, and "BIM" (really 3D) coordination is they forget to have someone model the site surface.

Then you get everything coordinated and the surveyor interpolates the precise grading spot shots differently than you, and stakes your pipe 4" lower or so.

Also, no one models the landscaping, with tree boxes. So I commonly end up doing that and do not use C3D feature lines, as they are not civil engineering items.

They are 3d polyline things, but civil design linear items are a combination of horizontal and vertical, with the change points rarely lining up.

In other words, I can model something like a top of slope with minimum effort, as I pick a pline and then say where the grade breaks are. I don't have to manage the grade breaks forced at horizontal segment changes like feature lines. That speeds things up about 5 fold, for both creation and editing.

Because of that, I can do more surface models than most might spend time on. I wish adesk understood that every linear thing we do is an alignment, not a hub and spoke thing like a 3d polyline.

[Anonymous]

Read the article and say Amen!

This is one of the things that's put me off of moving to IW. I have a structural/mechanical background as well, and really like the way revit and BIM work and process things.  I like many others have been dreaming of the day there is true BIM solutions for civil work.

The  shot of your model is cool.

Looks like you put utilities and structures above ground for display purposes and draped a plan view on top of the surface.

Are these pipe network features exported from C3D?

Surfaces usually aren't an issue, we do mostly roads and utilities and I use lots of corridors that can easily generate proposed surfaces within the ROW.

As far as deliverables produced with IW, do you have any? Or do you mainly use it to visualize, run around in the model and show people on the screen?

I really like the idea of modeling everything to coordinate and spot conflicts.  It's what I do in C3D during design, but IW looks like it does many things, like visualizing the model, much better. I'm trying to figure out what tasks are best passed on to IW and what should stay in C3D.

[JamesMaeding]

Cool, thx for reading that.

The shot if from navis, and we never ended up making a proposed surface, crazy I know.

The pipes are generated from my tools, not civil3d.

I essentially make a 3dpline "tesselated" from parametric alignment data, and run sweep on it in acad to get solids.

The vaults and valves and things are other tools we did that take advantage of pipes already created.

Its fast enough to recreate them if pipes move, that we have not made them dynamic yet.

As for deliverables, its screenshots and videos of our models. We do not yet post to IW 360 as its limitations are not worth it.

People that want to see can come here and meet, or use online meeting.

Conflict detection is best in navisworks, but you need the top level one and its not cheap.

I really have not found any useful design abilities in IW. Those that do highway alignment studies might find it useful, but all that can be done in C3D, and I would argue it should be done there, and pulled in as imx or corridor.

Given that you can pull in fbx, you can create content in many places and IW pulls it in.

Earlier versions made it hard to line things up coordinate-wise, but that seems to work now.

I keep my eyes open though, and know I have not fully ridden the crest of the wave with IW.

[Karsten.Saenger]

Hi @Anonymous

stitching or merging terrain data together is as designed in InfraWorks. It's meant to build a model of the real world and there can only be one terrain.

Order of imported terrain data has incluence to the merged result, by the way.

However, you should be able to delete certain terrain data source from your model leaving the other terrain valid.

See this screencast, there is a LandXML terrain, I added a shape file with contiur lines, then deleted the LandXML file:

http://autode.sk/2wthGMT

If with deleting the terrain the areial images disappear, you can always get them back if you connect the to Bing server database:

Regards,

Karsten.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info! Thanks exactly the kind of specifics I was looking for. (but the other information has been very useful)

The issue I had was the imagery went away in display not as a connected data source.  It was still there, still connected to my geotiff, but wouldn't display. (tried refresh and all that)

Also, once the model builder terrain was removed, the shapefile terrain wouldn't display either.  I ended up with no terrain or image displayed, only pipes and stuff I had added.  But my locally saved terrain and imagery was still loaded as a data source, just wouldn't display.

[JamesMaeding]

@Karsten.Saenger

Right, that is what @Anonymous and I am saying. For one surface source to cause another to not show, is a bug.

The model builder bing maps things is kind of a joke IMO.

People need to get off relying on adesk for aerial images, as they will need them for other things like acad exhibits.

Get on MOBAC and get back control.

You do have to honor the policies of on-line image tile providers though. Its about easily getting the image, not getting around laws.