Another question about coordinate systems and Infraworks

[noynpe]

Hi all,

I am hoping some of the talented people in here can help me with this one as I have tried airing the issue with the experts in my company without any result.

I am trying to create a presentation model of a large rail project. We have already modeled most of it in different programs, such as Revit, Civil 3D, Bently software and so on. The result is a separate  model for each discipline in simple dwg format containing mesh, solids, surface and other Autocad objects. 

I wan to bring these into Infraworks.

All the models are in ETRS89.UTM-32N coordinates and this is what I have set the UCS coordinatesystem for mye IW model to. The database I kept as default LL84.

When I bring in data in the form of LandXML, aerial images, alignments from Civil 3D and so on it all falls perfectly into place with the UTM 32N coordinate system. 

The problem is when I try to insert a AutoCad DWG (3D objects) the positioning is slightly rotated.

In the screenshot below I have added 3 different models. The one marked by the blue arrow is just a simple road alignment only represented with the centreline, this is brought in from a dwg as an alignment with the UTM32N coordinate system.

The red and green arrow points to two different dwg (3D objects) wich has been brought in the same exact way, but as you can see the do not end up in the corect place, the arrows should end up approximately in the same place for all the models.

When adding the 3D model dwg's it is the same result if the objects in the dwg is placed at the correct coordinates or I move them to a point closer to 0,0 and adjust the local origin on import to IW.

So to sum up:

It seems like when I import DWG containing 3D objects there seems to be some kind of rotaion beeing set, and this is dependent on the lenght og the objects in the dwg. 

I am guessing this has something to do with the coordinate system I use and it beeing so far away from 0,0, but I had hoped that moving them closer to 0,0 in the DWG would work...

I hope somebody has a clever answer for me 🙂

*Edit:

I get the same problem if I try to add Revit files which has been set up with the correct project base point for my project - They also end up slightly rotated.

[Glenn.Coppard · Accepted solution]

Will timed post - as I was about to start my own rant on this exact topic.

It is not a coordinate issue, it is the way Infraworks handles generic '3D Models', and not/incorrectly applying any re-projection to the individual elements within a generic '3D Model'

From previous correspondence with Karsten, the intention of the '3D Model' imports (such as a 3d DWG, FBX, DAE, etc...) is they are for single instance objects like a lamp post or a signage gantry, having a single 'insertion point', not large spatially extensive objects.

Which, as you've found out is fundamentally flawed in application, eg. When attaching a traffic simulation (DAE from 3DS MAX) over a 6km section of road, OR, inserting a complex arrangement of roadside / rockfall barriers, Architectural Tunnel Portals.

These no longer align with other spatial objects (eg. Terrains [XML's]/ Coverages [SHP's]), which is a huge problem, as 'little' fudges to the data-sources translation (offset / rotation) are not ideal/acceptable, or consistent, to get a 'best fit' for visual purposes only

[noynpe]

Are you certain this is not a coordinate issue? 

I am working far avay from the coordinate system origin (297500m ,6698000m is the local origin)

I would strongly belive that this in fact is a coordinate system issue since I get the same result when importing straight from Revit models with the local origin. But maybe this is still due to how Infraworks imports geometry? If that is the case then Infraworks is really missing the one thing that it really needs, namley bringing models from everywhere togheter as one.

[noynpe]

On second thought, I think I accept your explanation regarding it being a Infraworks import problem rather than a coordinate system problem. I did some testing to see how it would look like with a brand new IW model with everything in just the local coordinates. I just moved the alignment dwg to the local origin and the same with the dwg(3d object) files. The result is as seen below.

As you can see the alignment corresponds pretty good with the highlighted model, wich is a rather small model - only about 20-30m.

The model below is larger at about 0.8 km long or something like that. The rotation is not as bad as before, so I'm tinking that the large coordinates does have something to do with the problem, but there has to be something else messing it up.

So my question is now: Can I bring in any of my models to Infraworks with some kind of workaround for this problem, or is Infraworks useless to me?

[Glenn.Coppard]

Yeah, that is not the 'Large Coordinate' problem Infraworks has with 3D Models, of which I've noted and given the workaround for many times.

The issue does make Infraworks less suitable (or of limited ability) for collaboration and coordination across disciplines/organisations/design packages.
I mainly use 12d Model (and little Navisworks) to check all the model coordination, with Infraworks just being the 'eye candy' which as I mentioned - needs those little fudges to get things 'visually' aligned.

[noynpe]

So as I understand the only workaround to this issue is to divide all the 3d models up into tiny bits/ one element at the time and have a local origion right in the middle of the element and then bring it into IW? That is an impossible task not just for this project, but for any project... I really hope the developers se how stupid this problem really is...

We use only Navisworks for collaboration. In these models we have used existing terrain with ortophoto from Infraworks.

 

It works very vell for collaboration, but it would be much easier to share portions of the model or the whole model with stakeholders and the public using Infraworks. It would also ease our job of getting simple illustrations straight from IW. Additionally an fbx export from IW would be great to use as a strating point for high end illustrations in 3DS Max and video presentation using Lumion.

But oh well, I guess IW is'nt ready for us just yet....

[Glenn.Coppard]

Yup, those are the exact issues we've been battling with for years now!

And agree, It is utterly bizzare that these most basic functions, from essentially the base Autodesk products, don't work in IW.

[hanslammerts]

[NOT solved]

Just leaving this here that i am stunned and disappointed. Maywe infra desingers expect our sofware developed and maintained in to have some decent ways to work together as a bundle? Anywhere between 'basic' and seamlessly. Or are we creating more islands of automation? Just asking

[Anonymous]

I agree, as I came across this thread trying to combine drone, revit models and civil 3d models.

[ceethreedee.com]

yep it also makes dealing with stuff that's in a mine datum or project coordinate system very difficult to deal with... still a problem in 2021