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Snapping in 3D

Snapping in 3D

The need for 3d snapping has been discussed earlier. I'm interested to hear how the Fusion 360 Team is thinking of implementing it. Currently, I really like the 2D Sketch environment and I hope whatever the solution, it will build on the same user experience (instead of diverging the look and feel).

 

Here are some suggestions, based on building a component for a steel mesh.

 

The current state

 

For those new to the forum, Fusion 360 does not have 3d snap. It has snap (and plenty more) in the 2D Sketch mode - but not in the usual 3D space.

 

The way around (as suggested elsewhere in the forum) is to use Joint Origins and fix everything together with them. However, this is really strange for creating a component without internal moving parts. Joints are for movements, components (by their Fusion 360 definition) are parts that move, relative to other components. We shouldn't use (need) components for building something that doesn't have internal degrees of freedom. Ugh.

 

Ignore the Joint Origins in the screen shot, I'm not going to use them. Instead, I'll see how Fusion 360 could make this kind of construction clear, and intuitive to the user, as it already does in the Sketch side.

 

Capture 2013-9-18 kello 15.31.06.jpg

 

If I just start to move the blue (selected) bar, it's kind of difficult to even drag it near where it should be snapped. This is because I'm dragging in 3D and the "depth" of the drag dot seems not to be in my control. I end up with this:

 

Capture 2013-9-18 kello 15.52.11.jpg

 

The ends don't meet. The blue bar is behind the one I would like to snap it to.

 

How do other CAD programs solve this? Are there examples of 3D snapping UI's? (really - I don't know)

 

Suggestion #1 - a 'Projection' constraint

 

What I can see as a possible solution is reusing the fine features in the Sketch mode.

 

1. Let's create a work plane

 

Capture 2013-9-18 kello 15.58.29.jpg

 

Looking from above (right click on the sketch in Browser, 'Look at'), I place points on the sketch.

 

Capture 2013-9-18 kello 16.06.01.jpg

 

Now, if we can make the 3D elements be tied to these dots, that's (almost) it. We would in effect constrain the 3D model to always follow (changes in) the sketch.

 

In order to do that, we need a feature that pairs sketch elements to 3D model elements.

 

It could be called '3d constraints' and be yet another submode of the Sketch mode (like 'dimensions' and 'constraints' now are). It can also be just a new kind of 'projection' constraint.

 

mod constraint.jpg

 

Here the lowest entry is a new one - the icon is borrowed from that used for 3d models (just a place holder).

 

If I select the 'Projection' construct, I'd be able to select any 3d model location (while still in the Sketch mode) that would then constrain the 3D element so that it's projection matches the given sketch point. This should be somehow indicated visually to the user (as sketch does for its 2d constraints).

 

The feature could ask me whether I want to move the 3d element to the sketch plane, or just constrain the projection. If I choose to constrain only the projection, I can make another sketch and constrain the remaining degree of freedom through it (to the same 3d point).

 

This way, I could implement i.e. meshes easily, by constraining multiple bar end points to the particular sketch 2d points.

 

Suggestion #2 - snapping in 3d

 

Since simply moving a 3d element over another, and snap, turned out to be difficult, let's see another way that could do the snap without the need to resort to sketches.

 

Let's create construction points at the tips of the two bars.

 

Capture 2013-9-18 kello 16.27.51.jpg

 

If we now had a feature (like Assemble > Join) to join these two points (moving one of the elements) that would be it.

 

( Fusion 360 doesn't do this, since these bodies are within the same component, and only components can be joined to other components, as per their definition. )

 

The feature should probably be under 'Modify' (or simply come about if two or more elements have been selected and one does a right click). ( Let's leave 'Assemble' for the component stuff. )

 

( Hmm.. my use of construction points is not good here. They don't move with the bars. Bummer. )

 

The 'snap' feature would allow me to tie the two ends of the bars together (moving the first, like Join does for components). The connection should be like a ball joint (for points), allowing me to further manually move both the bars or add other snaps to fully constrain them.

 

#3 - use what is there now

 

I was able to get this, as a single component, done using Fusion 360 existing 'move' and 'split body' commands. 

 

Capture 2013-9-18 kello 16.43.09.jpg

 

It looks right, but is not based on precise geometry. Especially getting the aligned section to be somewhat right was difficult since I can only control the rotation angle (in 'move'), not constrain it to go through the end points.

 

Maybe there is a workflow that can currently do this better (please suggest me one!). But it's telling that it's very hard to find one. 

 

The lack of 3d 'snap' is my #1 grievance on Fusion 360, at this time. Whatever the solution, I hope it binds the amazingly nice Sketch mode feeling and usefulness of its constraints seemingly also to the 3d. Currently, it feels like the 2d CAD inside the 3d one is actually more powerful.

 

Can you reveal your plans on this? Thanks.

 

6 Comments
lure23
Collaborator

Would kind of be nice to be able to edit an Idea? Like fix the pictures in it.

 

Try to match them to the text:

 

1.jpg

 

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Oceanconcepts
Advisor

Asko,

re. other solutions:  I know in Cobalt I would be able to select any part in the drawing, select the move tool, select any point on the part I want to move as a reference origin (could be a midpoint, center, corner, quadrant, etc.) , then select another point in the drawing (any line, point, midpoint, center, quadrant, edge, etc.) and with that one click have the selected points snap to alignment by moving the selected part.  Very quick and simple. I miss this functionality- a lot.  I could also use these 3D snaps in the same way to align parts, rotate them to alignment (to align edges, for instance, or an edge to an axis, whatever), just generally to get them to move relative to one another. It's intuitive and requires very few steps. It's similar to the way aligning co-planar surfaces works now in Fusion. 

 

If you want construction features to move with the parts in Fusion, they need to be created when the component containing those parts is Active, so they are housed inside that component rather than at the root level.  If they are in the component, then you can use the Align tool- which is deeply hidden in the interface- to snap the parts into alignment and the parts and the construction features will move together.  That may require making nested sub-components if the parts are in the same component.  This works, mostly, but it requires a lot of activating components, scrolling up to the top level, activating the master component again, creating extra construction features- and a lot of organization. It also seems to me, in a UI sense, to be very hard to find.   

It's hard to understand why it would not be possible to treat various 3D snap points we are discussing as part of the measure tool (midpoint, quadrant, center, edge, etc.) as kind of "built in" construction features, permanently associated with the geometry, and allow the existing align tool to be used on them, rather than having to go through the extra steps of creating new construction features in the in the component  (activating, de-activating, cluttering the interface).  Currently is feels like lots of churning about for something that should be simple.

Have you seen this video?  I don't find it or anything covering this topic in a quick search  of the learning center, so I put it in dropbox.  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71299384/Position%20Components%20-%20Align.mp4

 

Here is a thread on more or less this topic:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Get-Help-with-Fusion-360/Help-with-alignment-workflow/td-p/4332190

And another- with your comment included:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Get-Help-with-Fusion-360/Fusion-360-snapping-aligning-or-assembling-pi...

 

Ron

lure23
Collaborator

Thanks, Ron

 

The section on Cobalt truly sounds like bliss. Ahhhh....

 

I dislike the idea of using subcomponents simply as workarounds. All concepts of a (software) design should adhere to some real purpose, and description. For components in Fusion 360, this is "things that can move, relative to other components".

 

If we go beyond that, needing to make components for whatever other reason (s.a. moving the construction points with them) that intention is not visible for others using the model. They would think - ah, maybe he's intending to move this in relation to something, later.

 

The above is written based on my experience crafting software. But I think it's a general design mindset - using a construct implies intentions on what to be done with that construct.

 

I hope Autodesk thinks the same.

 

p.s. "improved snap/positioning of objects" is in the Roadmap for Sep release.

Oceanconcepts
Advisor

I don't have quite the same take on the reason for something being a component- I see it as more of an assembly process.  As in these components are building blocks for the design. I have parts with many nested components, and think of them as assemblies and sub-assemblies.  We may be saying the same thing, as they move when they are put together, even if they don't afterwards. I agree that users should not need to create structure in the form of extra components unless it is logically inherent in the model. 

 

What I would like to see is the ability to select any object (body or component) and highlight a feature or point on that object (edge, point, midpoint, center, axis, quadrant, etc.), then select a second point on another object I want to align with, select Align option in the menu, and have the 1st part snap to the 2nd.  This functionality is already mostly there in Fusion, it's just buried in the interface and requires extra steps in that you need to create construction features in the separately activated components to provide the snap locations. 

Of course, doing software here I am very aware that sometimes things that seem easy from the outside are not, and there may be conflicts with future plans.  But this seems similar to what Fusion does already. 

I do wonder that users don't have any guide to the use of the align menu item in the help section- at least nothing I can find. Or even a reference that it exists.That video, no longer posted, is the only reference I have to a key (for me) workflow element that enables precise positioning. 

This is not to dismiss the value of the joints tool- very powerful and useful. But often you want just to quickly move two items into a precise relationship without creating extra interface elements or clutter.  Or I may want to move into alignment and then move a precise distance off.  Joints are needlessly complex for this kind of simple task.

schneik-adsk
Community Manager

Have you tried the improvments we made to the align command?

 

brianrepp
Community Manager
Status changed to: RUG-jp審査通過
 

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