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MEP Systems and Connections Across Linked Models

It would be nice to have MEP connectors be available for connection in a linked model. Also, these connectors should be able to be added to a system or circuit. There are many projects where mechanical, electrical and plumbing are split into multiple models in various ways. It would be helpful to have the same system creation functionality across linked models.

Comentarios
Autodesk
Autodesk

Revit objects / components should have the ability to connect within a linked model with different disciplines.

 

suggested by: BAM

Community Visitor
Community Visitor

Yes, we do all of our projects with each discipline in separate models, and it would be great to have these connections to work between files!

Contributor
Contributor
The idea is not new, but still good! However I have a tested workaround:

Place a "plug" family with proper connector calculations in the linked project, and another at opposite direction with a connector set to preset in yours. (You can use Copy/Monitor)
With an easy (getparam-setparam) Dynamo script keep them synced.
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@szilagyi.balazs I agree, Dynamo is a great workaround! 

 

I searched for the idea but did not find it posted on here. Please post the link so that we don't split the votes. 

Autodesk
Autodesk

Hi Jason-- thanks for posting.. I'm guessing that your goal isn't actually to connect through a linked file... that's just a means to an end, right?

 

What you want for circuits is that the load from in one file to be able to be tabulated on a panel in a different model?

 

For pipes/ducts, is it that you want to be able to propagate flow from one model into another, so you have total flow aggregated back to fans/pumps/equipment that is another model, to get a total flow/pressure drop?

 

What are the other things that you are hoping that 'connecting through a link' would do that you can't do now?

 

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi Martin, thanks for reaching out. I think you're pretty spot on with your assessment of the requested idea.

 

An example on the electrical side is when the equipment is in a linked model and needs to be circuited in the host model. The goal is to create a circuit with the link's equipment's connectors and then wire the circuit in the host model. 

 

Continuing with that example, the same would go for duct and piping systems. If the equipment was in a link, it would be nice to be able to create a system in the host model and then connect duct/pipe to the connectors on the equipment in the link. Then as you stated, the flow should propagate through the system, back to the fan/pump/equipment.

 

One thing I would add is that it would be helpful to have the circuits and systems be visible in both/all models. So if the mechanical equipment is in one model and then there is an electrical model that contains all the circuits, I think it would be nice to have the circuit information be available in the model with the mechanical equipment. I'm not sure how this would be handled (it's still an idea!), but I'm thinking the mechanical model would also have to link the electrical model for this to be able to happen. In theory, the mechanical model could be linked to several electrical models with varying circuits/panels, so there would have to be a means to communicate the correct information back.

 

In the case of extremely large projects with multiple models, it is important to have a method to keep track of all the system/circuit information.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

This is a great idea, and it has been an issue that has resulted in different workarounds.

 

I've heard some form of copy-monitoring can be done, but that doesn't always work very well. Another strategy, at least with plumbing fixtures, is there can be invisible box families with extrusions and connectors that can be placed throughout the model and over top of the fixtures in the architectural model.

 

The concern I would have about using the linked fixtures and connecting to them is the quality of the families the other parties are modelling. Since mechanical or electrical may still responsible for whatever linked item at the end of the day, parameters like fixture units, tagging, voltages, flow rates, etc. are all more important to the consultant than they are to the architect.

 

If there could be a way to use the linked family so there is only one 3D object between the models, but where the designer concerned with it could have control over the connectors and other important parameters in the model that concerns a particular discipline. So on a lab bench the mechanical consultant might have a parameter called Hot Water Fixture Units for a sink and the Electrical consultant might have one called Line Voltage.

Anonymous

@szilagyi.balazs I'd be interested to hear more about that workaround.  But I'd be hesitant to do it in a project working with multiple people ina  team because they wouldn't know how to maintain it or understand it. 

 

Revit should just add the feature.

Contributor
Contributor

You just have to pair "TO DEVICES *" and "TO EQUPMENT *" Families in you host and linked projects. 

 

["TO EQUPMENT *" family connectors should be "System" or "Calculated", "TO DEVICES *" family connector should be "Preset"]

 

I use shared parameters for all involved connector families. 

 

In the device's (hydronic radiators, fancoils) project you have to make the connector families to System Equipments:

linkmodels_P1.png

 

In the other project, the connector families act like devices: 

linkmodels_P2.png

 

Pairing can be done by a custom parameter value for example in Comments parameter (GetParameterValueByName node), or they can be identified by common insertion point (Element.Location node). 

 

After you have the pairs, it is easy to get Flow and other values from "TO EQUIPMENT *" family and set the parameters on the other. 

Anonymous

I think this is a super interesting topic since nowadays we are forced to use linked models, due to unbearable file's size. I'm work on a big project dealing with several building and one main skyscraper, so we had to split to model first into HVAC Electrical and so on, and than divide each one into block of 10 floors.
How would you approach this situation (in order to create a unique(the real one) system) in the coordination MEP model? Do we have any news or the @szilagyi.balazs 's solution is still the better one? 

Anonymous

@szilagyi.balazs wrote:

Place a "plug" family with proper connector calculations in the linked project, and another at opposite direction with a connector set to preset in yours. (You can use Copy/Monitor)
With an easy (getparam-setparam) Dynamo script keep them synced.


Could you add some more info or maybe a short screencast with the Dynamo nodes? How would you use a copy/monitor to access all the data?


Once you've made all the connections you should have in both models the same complete information of the system; with the only differences that without the respective linked model you only have the right information on loads and calculation, but not the geometrical part. And again in no way you could be able to select all the complete system, since part of it reside in a linked model, and that's a pity, isn't it? 

 

Thank you very much

We are working on a Proto for a client. The building has a couple of areas that remain the same no matter what proto option is choosen. There are quite a few tenant options as well. 

We are creating a KOP (kit of parts) for the site adapt teams to select the separate revit model options for their site and link into the main revit model.

This prevents the circuiting and panel schedules from showing up in the main model. If the circuits could be re-linked when linked in to the main file, that would be great. We are looking into a work around currently. The only option that is full proof is to create and entire proto for each possible option of the proto. The downfall is that we would have to maintain upto 15 protos if there was a small change.

We have tried copy/paste and that only lets a few circuits remain circuited to its panel, but most become undefined...

Please create a connection for electrical circuits to read linked files.

Thank you.

Anonymous

I would also like to have the ability to connect to connectors (electrical, duct, and pipe) across linked models. I work in a firm where mechanical and electrical disciplines share models, but we are considering splitting these disciplines into their own models. The current proposed workflow involves using placeholder families to transfer connector data between models, but this introduces the potential for error. I would really like to be able to connect elements in a linked mechanical model to the circuits in our electrical model.

Autodesk
Autodesk

@Anonymous - do you have a well established methodology by which you ensure that the mechanical model elements have the required electrical data in them (proper voltage, poles, load classification, load, etc..)?  Who populates that information into the mechanical model elements, do the electrical folks trust the mechanical folks to do this properly?

Contributor
Contributor

In a similar vein, I would also like to be able to access the Electrical System of a linked project.  We are a small company, who is starting to invest more time into some more involved Revit modeling.  We do some design, but more often we are responsible for the coordination and construction.  I would like to be able to match conduits to electrical loads in a  linked file, without having to hijack a copy of the Engineers model.  If I could access the electrical system of a linked file, I could keep our file separate from theirs.

Also, we get all our electrical requirements for mechanical loads from the mechanical folks (although we generally double check the cut sheets)

Advocate
Advocate

@Martin__Schmid

A well designed Family with a Hyperlink to further product documention, schould be enough for the electrical folks

Anonymous

@Martin__Schmid  - We are a firm with both electrical and mechanical departments, so we coordinate directly and use the same shared parameters file. In some small projects, we work in the same model and directly connect mechanical equipment to our circuits. In larger projects, however, it is necessary to split the model by discipline to maintain speed and stability. In those cases, we lose the circuiting functionality that we have in smaller projects. We are exploring using Dynamo to populate parameters on a placeholder motor element, but we would prefer not to use a workaround.

Advocate
Advocate

The Architechts  in our Firm places all the sanitary/electrical objects like Bathtubes, Kitchens, Freezers and etc.. We MEP-Engineers always link the Architecht-Model into our MEP-Host-Model. Sadly we then need to add all the Sanitary Objetcs into the Host-Model to get the Sanitary Information which we need for the Pipe-Network-calculation.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast
This is one of the primary issues and what we have done at our MEP firm with respect to plumbing fixtures in linked models in the past is used 'avatars' or basically cheater fixtures. These families contain no physical geometry other than reference planes, the connections required for interfacing with our systems, and all the other metadata about the fixtures that would matter for scheduling etc. These can be hosted or non-hosted.



It's a pain to do it this way but it has allowed us to keep integrity in the model without doubling up on modeled elements.


Contributor
Contributor

Hi, 

Thank you for your interest in our workaround. I have to say, the suggested method should be used as last option only. In general more links you have more pain you cause yourself. 

Try to separate te model to Worksets and open only the group affected by your actual changing will. 

 

@Anonymous in your case, when everyone is inhouse, Worksets should be loaded or unloaded to keep the amount of data in your RAM on a reasonable level.  

 

@Anonymous If you place multidisciplinear families to a workset (or a bunch of worksets, based on the levels or wings of the building) not permanently owner by anyone, can solve your problem in one project file. 

 

@bnydam  I think, you are looking for the Copy/Monitor tool. 

 

@hobyrne.ca & @Mark.Friis  Copy/Monitor's Coordination Settings can automate you the mapping of "Architectural" and "MEP" families. One with the geometry, the other is with the proper connector settings. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2019/ENU/Revit-Collaborate/files/GUID-F6C13AE9-07D2-47FD-A1B7-2A591DAF3E53-htm.html 

 

@Martin__Schmid is absolutely right: parameter modifications and updates yould be done with the argeement of all affected parties at all cases above. 

 

If you continue to insist on linking your models, you should pay attention to the followings at Duct Systems and  Piping Systems: 

  1. Connector in the family collecting a branch: Flow Configuration must be "Calculated" 
  2. Connector in the family at branch connections: Flow Configuration must be "Preset" 
  3. If you do not want to manage internal IDs, just pick (or create) a paramater to pair the connector families in the separated project files. 
  4. If you do not want to run the Dynamo script constantly, simly write the values to a text file and use it as an input for the other project.  

I hope I hear about your successes according to the topic. Good luck

Contributor
Contributor

@Martin__Schmid What about the the other billion dollar industries like foodservice?  Foodservice consultants are massive supporters of Revit and our industry has over 50,000 Revit families with MEP connector families and accurate MEP data. Emoticono feliz

 

How are the MEP engineers that we work with on every project supposed to use that information? Every project.

 

We love Revit so we spend the time to make our families perfect so our schedules are perfect and all of that great data is lost because Revit doesn't allow Electrical, Pipe, Duct Connector families to be used with linked models.  We are ALWAYS a linked model for the MEP engineers and the Architects, all consultants are linked in to engineers and architects models.  And because we can't even get our own Family Category we are forced to use Specialty Equipment. 

Specialty Equipment isn't even able to be Copy/Monitored.

 

For anybody that wants to help the foodservice industry get their own category like a real consultant so you can eventually link to our electrical, plumbing, and mechanical connectors, please check out the link below.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/create-a-new-family-category-for-quot-foodservice-equipme...

I will share this Revit Idea with the rest of the foodservice industry, we are all for fixing MEP Connectors and linked models and our equipment contains electrical, mechanical and plumbing.

 

If Autodesk wants to bring the industry together then make is easier for Revit architects, engineers, and consultants to work together.  We work through linked models, we are our own businesses. While you are at it add more family categories, we are not all Specialty Equipment.

Hi all,

 

Adding my support to this idea. One of the golden rules of "BIM" is to avoid duplication, both of elements, and the effort required to create and maintain them.

On many projects, the engineers are responsible for determining number and type of elements (ie air terminals, outlets etc) but the architect responsible for location (as well as generally modelling hosting elements such as walls and ceilings), so it makes sense that they exist in one place, with the ability to share control of that elements attributes, and connectors between links. 

 

Great idea so get onto it Autodesk!

Advocate
Advocate

In a Building you may many similar Apartments, each with similar static and MEP-Pipes and ducts. In order to work more effectively I only create one Family-Group for each apartment-typ and copy this group around in the model. I then keep these Family-Groups as groups in my model. If a change comes (and they often do), for instance the Owner now wants a shower in each Bathroom instead of a Bathtube, it is easy just to make this change for each apartment-type than in each apartment. Sadly these groups makes the Model really slow, and the MEP-Calculations doesnt work in groups. I cant create an assemply with the MEP-Stuff. I can though save each apartment-type and link it into the larger model, so it visually looks good and does´nt slow the the model down, beacuse its only links. Sadly I cant do any MEP-calculations across the the links and the Host model. So each change will have to done manually :cara_de_decepción: after placing the Groups and ungrouping them. Planing and designing a Building is an iterative process and changes will occur along the whole design process and thereby extend the worktime, this is garanteed! Connecting across models is fundamental.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Thank you Mark.Friis for sharing your insights and providing yet another reason why linked elements across models should be connectible. It was interesting to hear how you conduct your MEP workflows in a common situation. We often get so many changes throughout the design process, whether owner-driven, code-driven, or simply from the work of all the other disciplines. Where there are multiple symmetries throughout the project they must be exploited, and I believe Revit could be improved to better identify and work with these symmetries. With model groups being cumbersome and having to be linked in the main model to have it run more efficiently is yet another good reason to have the linked element connectors across models working seamlessly.


Participant
Participant

Hate to be that guy but Bentley's AECOsim and it's previous version Bentley BIM allows for circuiting, plumbing connections and HVAC connections across referenced aka linked models.  Seems like Autodesk could likewise solve this issue as it a major problem in Revit! 

Contributor
Contributor

The ability to connect to product family connectors from a linked model would be nice, but there should also be a connector type for MEP networks from one model to another. So when e.g. a duct or a pipe line continues from one model to another all the calculation data can be shared between the models. For those interested, this type of a thing has been used for a long time in ACAD + MagiCAD for ACAD world. "Connection node" is used as a name for these where MEP networks span many different DWGs.

 

MEP networks don't usually follow the logical borders of the different parts of a building or a group of buildings. So when we are using network balancing (flow and pressure loss calculations from for example MagiCAD for Revit) we need the full networks to be in one model for the calculations to work. Which means that usually we can't divide the MEP models in the same way as architects or other disciplines do according to the logical building parts/sections.

 

This is of course a problem only in larger projects where dividing the project into several different models is a must to keep the performance and size of the models reasonable. For now we have to split the models according to discipline (e.g. ventilation as its own model, heating&cooling as its own model etc.), but would be nice to have the option to split the models according to different building parts if we ever get those "connection nodes" in Revit.

Participant
Participant

This is also a significant issue on campus wide projects.  Several buildings can be served by a central plant and recreating the kVA from the separate models is not possible, as all of their Demand Factors must be considered together as a whole.

 

For example, for those Demand Factors with a "Calculation method" that are "by quantity", you would be required to re-created every individual load from all models served by the central plant model, to correctly calculate the Estimated Demand.  For systems as complex as hospitals, there are many separate Demand Factors that are "by quantity".

Participant
Participant

Any feedback from Autodesk on this topic?  Do we know if it's been added to the REVIT roadmap?  This is a key feature needed for all out REVIT projects.

 

Explorer
Explorer

I also want to add my support for this topic

Collaborator
Collaborator

maybe in 2024? this would make my job much easier.

Participant
Participant

@curtisridenour  you do not have to wait anymore. This is one of the new fetures of MagiCAD for Revit 2023: 

BSzilagyi_0-1654850965751.png

https://help.magicad.com/mcrev/2023/EN/new_features_2.html

Participant
Participant

The MagiCAD tool looks phenomenal, unfortunately in this application, it appears to be just for mechanical duct systems.  Electrically, we still need the ability to add electrical connector loads between models and preserve the demand factor calculations.

Participant
Participant
We solved this problem by changing to Bentley BIM design suite of tools. After waiting and working with Autodesk to make this happen it became obvious that it was not possible in Revit.
Contributor
Contributor

MagiCAD is not a solution to this issue, it is a workaround for MagiCAD users only.

 

And telling Revit users to use Bentley tools is petty unhelpful, if you don't like Revit then maybe you should stop posting on the Revit forums.

 

Participant
Participant
Not that I don't like Revit, but it is extremely frustrating that Autodesk is not as responsive to global issues that plague their products.
Contributor
Contributor

Like BSzilagyi mentioned MagiCAD has added support for ventilation connection nodes between Revit models. They should be adding this feature also for piping in the future versions. And I believe for electrical discipline also.

 

But of course this doesn't help those who don't use MagiCAD...

Contributor
Contributor

Good day guys , speaking about this issue that we face from Electrical engineering side ,i had to to duplicate families from one model to another ( copy/Monitor) since i have linked a model to another just to obtain the full load of a circuit and add it to the Panel that exists in the second model , but the problem that each time the any changes occured on the load from Model 1 , the copy monitored family isn't updated , 

i need to find a way ( Dynamo, or any other mean) to apply the changes occuring on the parameter of this family(Connector) and apply it to the copy monitored family( Connector) ,

i had been looking how should i read the input from the family in the link model and apply without any luck

can anyone help

Thanks

Participant
Participant

Dear @alaa.farhat , I think if you are using the Copy/Monitor feature, do not forget to check a Coordination Review dialog, where you can follow the updated of a C/M-ed element: 

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2020/ENU/Revit-C...

 

Contributor
Contributor

Thank you for the reply @BSzilagyi , i am not sure the coordination review will do the trick , since the changes are for the values in a specific parameter not a drafting parameters or changing position , what I mean ( the first value would be like 14 , then if the value changed to 22) ,the coordination review wont give me any notice for any value changing , 

please i am sharing my script that i have wrote on Dynamo, can someone please review , I need one or two more nodes to get the value needed and add it to the family existing on the model Using CODE Blocks_2022-09-02_10-43-27.png

Advocate
Advocate

I don't know if in the past this wasn't a feature, but in Revit 2023 you can Copy monitor MEP fixtures. Not Sure if it works the same as with copy monitor levels though. 

Participant
Participant

It's 2023 and I'm bumping this up.

We do 4 MEP fields at our firm, HVAC, Plumbing, Electricity and Fire Protection.
To have the ability to be able to get the MEP data from a linked file so we can schedule it properly would be awesome. 

 

Participant
Participant

I believe the best thing I could do for Electrical families (in the MEP model) is to add an Electrical connector to each family (in the Arch model) that needs power.  The Arch model would contain all the data needed to size the load.  Our Electrical Device family would read the Volts, Amps, etc.  This level of automation should be attainable in R 2024.  It was not in previous versions, but I think they fixed it.  A little research shows conflicting information.  I placed a connector on an oven in an Arch model.  I linked that into my MEP model, but I don't see that connector, cannot select it.  Maybe it is that I'm used to seeing Mech/Plum connectors where I have a flow direction?  If I could set the oven connector to flow out, and the electrical outlet to receive a calculated value, I think this could work.  

 

If we can place connectors on an element in an Arch model, the model which Arch is linked into ought to be able to use those parametric values, otherwise, what's the point?  

Participant
Participant

Is it still not possible to copy/monitor Specialty Equipment in Revit 2024?  I tried but looks like that does not work.