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Solid Mesh Topography with Boolean Operations

There are many cases where we need the topo mesh to finally be completely solid and still give us plan-area calculation values, this would be a general solve to most topography problems we're having. We could add and subtract volumes from one another and create tunnels, sub-terrain volumes, easier and more realistic sidewalks and roads, rocky mountainous areas that have more than one point in a specific X-Y coordinate with a different Z value, create caves and more. Specially with the help of Dynamo, the possibilities would be endless and achieve high-end industry professionalism.

Comentarios
Explorer
Explorer

Hello dear Autodesk,
I have suggestion for the new featere to implement in revit 2017 please!!! I had struggled a lot with cutting a horizontal hole in topography, and it's been impossible to succed. Building pad cuts topography from its very beginning all the way up to infinity no matter if I don't want that. Also shaft openings when hit floors cut it completely. If u can fix that easy issue would be really nice. The problem is when I want to make a tunnel in groundl or underground garage so I want that soil layer above the top of the underground floor. Thx in advance !!!

Contributor
Contributor

True. Currently there is no good way of building a topo that covers a subterranean structure (e.g. a tunnel). Underground structures are not an uncommon architectural design case. One possible way to implement this would be to give building pads an (optional) upper limit.

Participant
Participant

Why can't I place an excavation on the topographic. In result I want to get such views like in the attachment.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Don't forget fill

Collaborator
Collaborator

Nice sketches Emoticono feliz

lol as long as it gets the idea across... 

Anonymous

If you have been working with the Toposurface tools you might have experienced that is tricky to manipulate the topo, because you only have the option to manipulate the elevation of placed points. If you want to make a hole in the toposurface you can use the Building Pad for straight cuts level based. But if you want to make a cut with a sloped wall you will have to use the Site Designer tools. 

 

But how easy would it be if you could create a family/mass/in-place mass in which you can model a volume, place this on/in the toposurface and cut it out using the cut tools. If we are creating volume for the toposurface we might as well create the possibility to join volume to the toposurface.

 

I am curious whether you like to have this kind of tooling as well in order to manipulate the toposurface on an intuitive way.

 

With kind regards,

Kelly Pelzer

Anonymous

Hi Arek,

 

Thanks for the heads up, i voted for your idea as well.

 

With kind regards,

Kelly Pelzer

Anonymous

It would be very helpful if you could set a default thickness to your topographies, similar to a floor thickness.  When doing site studies or adding area roads to a project, I will usually use the "Split Surface" tool to add streets into an already modeled topography.  When offsetting the newly split road topo to adjust for the curb height, you are left with an empty space where the curb would be.  Being able to add a set a default topo thickness of would fill the gap.

 

When creating floor, you can add as many sub-element points as needed and adjust the height of those points to mimic topo lines while maintaining your floor thickness at each point, so hopefully the process would be very similar.

Autodesk
Autodesk
El estado se ha cambiado a: Under Review

Thanks for your submission and votes on this idea!  We are evaluating where this request falls into our roadmap and will provide an update when we have made a decision. 

 

The Factory

Community Visitor
Community Visitor

please vote! it's important!

Anonymous

At moment is not possible to draw an underground building like parking, i asked to Autodesk Support too. The only solution is to insert a pad and another topography over it, but is so difficulty to manage, especially in the views where I need to use a massive masking with hatch.

It would be very useful to use Booleans on the topography.

Anonymous

Agreed. We need a more general solution for dealing with topo surfaces. We should be able to represent tunnels for example.

 

-t

Anonymous

Pad and topography is not the only solution...

 

Another option is to use a roof as your topography which in turn can be used to cap off your underground structure.  It also cuts better in sections. 

Anonymous
The thing is that these are all hacks. Using roof for topos goes against
the principles of BIM. How is that going to schedule? You’ll end up with
extra roofs.

I’m not suggesting that Revit must become a fully blown civil engineering
design app but we should be able to have much better control over the topo
surface object. The tools and techniques for manipulating triangle geometry
are well understood, it’s not a problem. The problem as always is making
the change to a well established system without disrupting the whole
system. It’s difficult. But I have faith in the dev team.

-t
--
<>
Tomek Piatek
about.me/tomek_piatek
<>
Anonymous

@Anonymous

 

How does it go against BIM?  Doesn't matter what is used to create an object as long as the information is there.  You can assign materials to a roof the same way you can with topography.  

 

Principles of BIM?? Do you think Revit is BIM??  Revit is just a tool in the BIM process.  Just like Autocad, Civil3D, ArchiCAD, Bentley, Catia, etc are tools as well.

 

Keeping familes and methods by what they are....door for a door or a wall for a wall or roof for a roof, just shows that you can't think OOTB.

 

It's not a hack...it's using the software to do more than it was originally intended.  ArchiCAD was doing stuff like that way before Revit came along as well.  You must hate Dynamo too...which is a way to hack the API to get "information" from where the software can't.

Anonymous

@Anonymous

 

In an another project i had already used a roof like a topography, but the site was simply and I didn't had constraints from Municipal Administration.

In some cases I need to respect constraints and the topography above must be replaced as original state.

With roof family how do you simulate a complex topography? (see image attached)

 

 

You are right, often i use another objects and information in order to archieve results, but in topography cases i think that Autodesk should gives users more tools for editing the terrain, like booleans.

Autodesk tried to do it with Site Designer, but it is not well developed, after some edits the topography starts to have irreparably damages (and you can't create underground object).

 

Topo Cap.jpg

Anonymous

@Anonymous

Well, Site Designer was terrible to begin with, and it wasn't from "Autodesk"...it was an add-in developed by someone else that Autodesk bought and made it free to subscription users. 

 

And I have nothing against the topo tool though...I've done some pretty awesome site plans utilizing the topo, it's just a matter of not trying to use just one.  I've had some sites where I used 20 different topo objects as it was a large and lots of grade changes and daylight basements for buildings.  It's just that my sections looked terrible as topography isn't that great when cut and I had to use fill patterns to make by sections pop.

 

But yeah, you can do something like you are showing in your pic with a roof....  the roof works the same way as the topo, add points at the heights you need them to be.

Advocate
Advocate

I agree, we need better topo tools - site designer really is just a band aid, and while better than nothing, is still very cumbersome to use: a nice band aid, but a band aid nonetheless.

 

The ability for a topo to be represented by a solid (preferably not a mesh only, but something more nurb-like), while retaining the surface workability would be ideal. And host-able, as in, more things being able to be hosted to it. The railings in 2018 is a step in the right direction.

Advisor
Advisor

One other problem with the Roof (or Floor*) WORKAROUND/HACK** Guiño is that you can't use a point list like you can for Topos - you have to painstakingly place points manually (or create something using Dynamo).

 

@Anonymous / @Anonymous It's not so much going against "BIM", as making BIM harder - it's hard to use the "information" if it's hidden in non-standard places/categories. The "information" that says it's a "Roof" is wrong, etc. Also, workarounds are fine for one-offs, or rarely-encountered occurrences, but now that Revit supposedly has the backing of this "huge" software development company (Autodesk), it's time to start addressing some of these issues to make the workflow (and resultant product/model) more efficient and robust.


NOTES:
* I've used Floors because: (1) we generally use Floors for everything anyway (since Roofs can't do steel decking), and (2) railings couldn't be hosted to Roofs until 2017 (though it would only follow simple slopes, not shape edits, before that anyway)
** "a usually creatively improvised solution to a computer hardware or programming problem or limitation", i.e. "using the software to do more than it was originally intended"

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@lionel.kai

I agree with you, tha a workaround is bad.

 

If a workaround is needed, then it is not the apropriate tool for this task.

 

In our case we get these points from lists by a surveyor. this would be quiet easy. If Revit would handle large coordinates better... Recalculating official measurements is not good.

 

Our contacts at Autodesk intended us to use Civil3D for this task (Soil and excavations, Inventor for modleing Tasks, because Revit is unable to model the forms we need). New programs to learn, inconsistent model, Overkill for simple task anyway.

 

Revit should be able to model everything in one application. Not to use other products where data exchange produce other flaws and difficulties... But this seems not to be in behalf of Autodesk.

 

My look at Revit becomes more and more critical. 17 years old and not even rudimentarily good enough to produce plans for execution plans in that quality our customers demand for...

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@Anonymous

Revit is unable to do real boolean operations.

 

When you model a common family, create a body and do two or more bools on that body which overlap you will get an error.

 

In IFC export added bodies will be exported as two bodies, as I tested a few month ago. For mass control and calculations for prices this is bad.

 

Our supporters at autodesk said this is not possible to do. Even in the newest Version. You can workaround that with dynamo... Emoticono loco

Anonymous

Revit has very good feature of topography but we require more option in topography that can help to create more precise.

 

wall, floors and other structural elements are directly attach with topography.

 

Topography seems like single face in 3d views.

 

can we make topography that shows actual 3d view of topography

Collaborator
Collaborator

This improvement would be very important for German Revit users. In the Revit Wishlist 2017 in Germany it ranked #6 out of 52 wishes. You can find more information on https://www.rug-dach.de/

Be able to cut voids through toposurfaces such that a tunnel structure would show surface all around but be void inside tunnel....or be able to create multiple toposurfaces with different "Elevation of poche base" and/or "Section cut material" settings

 

Yes please.  To that list I add the following:

 

  • the ability to be able to schedule the regions of a topo surface (when split into different materials)
  • the ability to snap to the drawn geometry of a topo surface (you can't snap to existing when drawing different subregions)

 

Contributor
Contributor

Hi guys,

there is a similar idea on this forum, see the link below and vote for it.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/solid-mesh-topography-with-boolean-operations/idi-p/67037...

Advisor
Advisor

Or just change "Elevation of poche base" to "thickness of poche" instead.

And/or layers in Topography (like with Floors, such as 2" Asphalt over 4" Basecourse, etc.) would be nice, too.

Anonymous

I ran into this issue on a recent project. If you create a building pad all of the toposurface is eliminate above that pad. But what do you do if the perimeter of a basement exceeds the perimeter area of the building above it? 

Any news? It's been two major versi9ns since you said you were evaluating.

Anonymous

Bump for @arek_keshishian :cara_guiñando_un_ojo:

 

Any news Autodesk? It's been two major versions since you said you were evaluating.

 

:obras:Let's make this happen :cohete: and help out our construction community :construcción::cara_que_ríe_con_la_boca_abierta_y_los_ojos_sonrientes:

Anonymous

I think either they have to completely revamp the topography tools in recut or have a much better integration with infraworks. But with infraworks have much more involvement with more detailed design tools. 

Is there any updates on this? People have been voting for it nonstop.

El estado se ha cambiado a: Gathering Support

We are updating this thread to Gathering Support. We are continuing to evaluate where this request falls into our roadmap and will provide an update when we have made a decision. 

 

The Factory

Contributor
Contributor

Any update on where this is on the Revit roadmap? The process of "evaluating where it falls on the roadmap" started on 01.14.2017 according to the comment history.

Otherwise what have others found to be a viable alternative? Model in another program and import? I wouldn't mind importing a topographic surfaces as an in-place element at this point, so long as it's more malleable than provided natively in Revit.

El estado se ha cambiado a: Accepted

Congrats! We think this is a great idea, so we've decided to add it to our roadmap. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

The Factory

Collaborator
Collaborator

Please add a command so that we can cut the Topography at a 45 degree angle (as shown). This will help us to get more accurate sections when doing SOE (Support of Excavation).

Image.png

P.S.  @Jamhmer_Oc  offered a solution to this problem, but it doesn't completely facilitate our job.

Thank you. 

 

Collaborator
Collaborator

greate idea
we hope to see it

@ArmanMargaryan  Thank you for submitting this Idea. There is a similar Idea that has been Accepted here:

Solid Mesh Topography with Boolean Operations - Autodesk Community 

Do you think this would help your specific inquiry? If it does, I would like to combine these Ideas.

 

Also, please see this item on the Revit Public Roadmap.

Real 3D Topography on Revit Public Roadmap | Trello

 

Thank you!

Kimberly

Collaborator
Collaborator

I think so too. You can combine these two ideas

@ArmanMargaryan Thank you!

Advisor
Advisor

This new functionality should also take into account that sometimes you want topography on TOP of a structure. Rooftop gardens, below-grade parking and interior landscaping in large spaces (think shopping mall or airport) are possible examples.

Explorer
Explorer

Topography is very difficult to work with when trying to model real world construction processes.

We need to model the excavation, calculate back fill (some of same material, sometimes new material), and re-grade the final topography. 

 

Tunnels and Cut and cover are difficult to model currently

Collaborator
Collaborator

Hi @sophiaVETFT ,

In the meantime you could use the SOFiSTiK Bridge + Infrastructure Modeler for this purpose. It includes commands for union, difference and cutting of geometry defined as Generic Model.

You can find the App here:

https://apps.autodesk.com/RVT/de/Detail/Index?id=2473907182654959779&appLang=en&os=Win64

For further information, feel free to contact me directly. :cara_con_una_leve_sonrisa:

If getting into the real topo business... consider layers to topography, soil conditions, materials along sample cores and connecting cores layers in 3D topography. It is more than just a surface! and I am sure Structural would love to see material and core support information especially for high rise or particularly dense projects.

Being able to cut topography so as to create features like underground parking, Basements, Tunnels, etc. There should not be need to use filled regions in Section views to show a tunnel like structure in Topography.

Advisor
Advisor

@shahed.attar3TK4E we will likely see this in Revit 2024 or 2025 as they are currently working on this as can be seen in the Revit Roadmap: Real 3D Topography on Revit Public Roadmap | Trello

 

Another nice thing I think they are working on too is Topography with layers: Multi-layered topography - Autodesk Community

 

@kimberly_fuhrman-jones please combine with Solid Mesh Topography with Boolean Operations - Autodesk Community

@wr.marshall Thank you for the update. These are really nice features and we will be glad once they go live.

Explorer
Explorer

At the moment when you set your View Range cut-plane below the surface of your toposurface and it no longer cuts through the surface, the topography surface disappears in plan view. 

 

Also be great if you actually can expose the area below the site in 3D without having to use a section box. It is not until you cut through the topo surface with the section box that you can see the volume below the site. 

 

Advisor
Advisor

This will probably be available in R2024/R2025 as they currently working on it. There are 2 parts they working on

Part 1: The ability to have items like tunnels and topography below topography (ie cliff with a negative angle)

Part 2: Layered Topography ie different soil, clay & rocks...

 

see Trello link: Real 3D Topography on Revit Public Roadmap | Trello

 

 

 

El estado se ha cambiado a: Implemented

We are pleased to say that this has been implemented in Revit 2024! Thank you for your contribution to improving Revit!

 -The Factory

Explorer
Explorer

My biggest issue when dealing with Revit Topography is the random triangulation that is added when there is a steep gradient change.

This causes actual errors and forces me to modify an engineer's content which means I am taking ownership and responsibility for the topography. It happens in nearly every project and I am often tempted to use floors to show topography around retaining walls. 

@jesse_dFPTMN  - Link Civil 3D through BIM 360.... then push back to C3D with added or tweaked topo in Revit?

Collaborator
Collaborator

 Glad to see the terrain handling in revit, though with some problems now. But it's a very good start! In the test, I found some problems, and I hope to be improved in the subsequent version.

1, revit terrain import file coordinate data. In practice, the measured data value is very large, which is greater than the limit of revit. Manual transformation of the coordinate data value or the relative position in CAD is required. It would be nice if we could set the measurement point first, and then the data can be automatically processed relative to the measurement point.

  1. It is not convenient to modify the solid terrain triangle surface. In civil3D, you can correct the triangular surface of the curved surface very quickly by adding the feature lines, and the position of the point can be well captured in the editing process. Generally I would edit the terrain surface in CIVIL3D. The revit is optimized for solid terrain triangle correction and editing, or it can intelligently and accurately identify the triangular mesh of linked CAD (civil3d) surfaces.
  2. Irregular stratification of rock and soil; in reality, the direction of rock and soil is irregular. We simulate the coordinate elevation points obtained by drilling to judge the direction of rock strata and the thickness of different locations. If the solid terrain can be cut from each other, I can achieve the layered display of rock and soil by creating multiple surfaces (solid terrain).(Or you can edit the deformation in different layers directly through import points or link surfaces.)
  3. Now with the physical terrain, it seems possible for the road design to be completed on revit. After all, the limitations of the civil3D are still very big. Revit is a big platform, and the whole basic design can be integrated through modification.