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Topography Enhancements

Autodesk must do something for topography to evolve. It should be possible to create, as per reality, topo covering a roof for some half of fully burried houses, to hollow cut a topo like any type of volume. Must be absolutely considered, especially with the evolving sustainable ways houses will be like in futur. Burried or half burried is more than important.

Comentarios
Anonymous

1. Patterns on topography, in some countries this is standard in site plans

2. Dimensions (also on filled regions..)

3. Ability to pick topography lines when drawing other elements (right now I have to draw a pattern on top of the subregion/toposurface by eyeballing it, then add annotation lines, and only then can I add dimensions to the topography.). 

 

Creating site plans, master plans, and landscape plans is just so arduous right now because of the limitations of the topography. Even plug ins and extensions don't help. 

Anonymous

I need to control thickness of topography surface drafting pattern.

Topography need full revision, please.

 

Explorer
Explorer

Some features that could be useful for topography and site-design are:

-Create contour lines in Revit, instead of using points (Yes, importing CAD plans works, but if you don't have Autocad it sucks). A plus to this is that it will allow modification to the topography after the building is designed. Maybe that could be controlled with phasing filters as well. 

-Building pads with multiple heights, angles, and maybe some other attributes; or joining different building pads to create one larger pad.

-Pad like features: for creating parking surfaces or other items where you would like a pad, but still have options to control it like a floor. So essentially a floor that is hosted / connected to the topography. This could even be useful for creating walkways and curbs. Because the site designer tools are not very good.

-Maybe a tool for creating uniform ditches/culverts 

-Hatch patterns showing in plan 

-Tessellate feature: something more for concept design that would smooth out topography while keeping specific points at their designated heights. Such as contour lines and points. So this could just smooth out the space between points and lines to create less jagged looking topographies

-Retaining wall feature that automatically creates a void in topography - with the option to control the height of the topography on each side of the wall (sort of like a building pad, but drawn like a wall). Should also contain attributes to control the angle of the wall, as well as the assembly and so on.

-Curb tool - similar to retaining wall, that or have a feature to match a landscape pad-like feature to the t.o. of the curb. That will allow users to just control one height instead of two heights trying to match each other.

-Fence tool: like the railing but could handle topography variations better: options to keep posts completely vertical or at angles (as desired), option to control posts O.C. distances. Options to control if the stringers will be horizontal (and form a step-like structure rather than matching the slope of the topography). And the ability to host a section detail to the tool.

 

It's a big wish-list with lots of civil features, but it would be really useful for concept designs and smaller projects that are done completely in-house. 

 

Anonymous

A lot of this was attempted already with Site Designer...it's terrible. 

 

And why do you need Autocad for point imports?  It is not a requirement for it to be installed.

Explorer
Explorer

Yeah, I haven't heard anything good about site designer so far.

Not using Autocad for points, but for contour lines. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a plugin out there for Revit that would allow someone to draw contour lines inside the program, and control the elevation of each line.

Anonymous

I think the folks at Autodesk try not to copy stuff from ArchiCAD....and being able to draw the contours with heights is an Archicad feature....which was quite fun when I created my own funky surfaces.

 

But just being able to create crazy surfaces with Revit by points is pretty cool too. As I start playing with a surface though this part of your idea would be very cool

"Tessellate feature: something more for concept design that would smooth out topography while keeping specific points at their designated heights. Such as contour lines and points. So this could just smooth out the space between points and lines to create less jagged looking topographies"  Having to add a bunch of points just to get a curve is too time consuming.

 

 

Explorer
Explorer

Patterns / fill on topography! I don't want to have to redraw all subregions as details / regions just to get some basic colour on our plans.

 

Thanks, C

Anonymous

Yes!!

 

Enabling Topography surface patterns to show up in plan seems like an easy implementation if the hatch is flattened (similar to a drafting hatch).

Enabling Topography surface patterns in Vertical (Elevation, Section) views as well as Axon/Perspective views could be enabled at least as a Drafting Hatch.  Even better, a Model hatch could be applied to the triangulated surfaces and the user could be offered the option to align or rotate the pattern per triangle or as a "best fit" globally.

Collaborator
Collaborator

Topography should behave the same as other elements and allow per view control (via templates, filters, model category and element overrides) of the surface color and cut view of the topography.  Some views need the topo to be white, others full color, others transparent or muted.  The cut pattern should be controlled by the material/filter, not in the topo settings.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Could we have better Topography Editing tools built into Revit.  I remember there was the Toposurface Editing add-In which Revit has now stopped, never got the hang of that add-in.

 

Please expand on the Massing & Site Tab (or break away the Site tab completely from the Massing tools to accommodate for these extra expansion functions).  We end up spending a lot of time editing the topography to get platforms or levels correct, site retaining walls, banks, boundary walls/fences, driveway gradients to comply with regulations, terraces, and so much more which many other users can perhaps expand on, only to have the site design changed by the client.

 

It gets frustrating spending so much time on editing the topography to get it correct, because these need to reflect correctly in relation to our building views and our designs.

 

Please look into this expansion of the Site tool.  Keep in mind, it needs to be of ease to use.  I know many if not all users will truly appreciate this, I certainly will.

Advisor
Advisor

This API addition would help with tool creation (would help with creating retaining walls, etc.) since Autodesk isn't likely to improve anything soon: Split Topography Method

Advisor
Advisor

Topography also need the ability to overlap whereby you will have a upper topography like a cliff with a negative angle for the "vertical face"  over the lower portion of topography  Lower Topography ---> ___\````` <--- Upper Topography

 

You will also need the ability to cut out volumes for tunnels, basements and pools...

Enthusiast
Enthusiast
A way to implement soil layers in Revit would be essential too. This way deep foundations could be optimized. And shown in drawings.
Advisor
Advisor
Another thing, though not exactly topography, but probably fall under topography, is the possibility to schedule pavers & tarmac roads as used in large residential developments and commercial projects. This could probably even be used when creating grass areas in a garden. The soil layer mentioned above probably go hand in hand with this function.
Contributor
Contributor
Beyond that, topography should be easier to create and also easier to import Civil 3D files. I have yet to get a Civil 3D file from an engineer that works without a ton of back and forth.
Collaborator
Collaborator
The possibility of walls, floors, roofs and everything else to be attached o Toposurface are so necessary!
Mentor
Mentor

Th main purpose of topography is to represent ground level around a site (imported from survey data) so you can develop built environment site levels. You can't really have a hollow in topography because topography has a very specific meaning, it's top or it's not. 

 

However (being self contradictory) I like the soil layers idea. From bore hole logs we should be able to plot and extrapolate between points. Geological features rarely have abrupt changes within the scale of your average site model. Probably at each point there should be the option for further lower levels.

 

I think there is room for improvement in terms of how pads could be allowed to overlap. Why not just say the lower of the two takes precedence in being a cut rather than the one over it being a fill (for the bottom one to exist it has to be a cut first). Also tagging support for these topo items was quite poor (non-existant) last time I used them, not sure if this is still the case?

Anonymous

I'm an architect at an AE firm with Civil in-house.  One of our workflows is to utilize the Civil3D publish surface, and then link the surface in to the Revit Site Model.  In this case, it would be helpful if Civil 3D could (easily) export portions of surfaces as corresponding Revit Categories (ie Road, Curb, Grade) (yes I know some of those categories don't exist yet).  This way the Architect's workflow on the receiving end to produce quality site plans and renderings would be more streamlined.  This would fall in line with Autodesk's goal of aligning datatypes between programs.

Contributor
Contributor
That would be great. I'll have to try the publishing idea. Thanks.

Erik
Anonymous

I also agree with @alan_eu about attaching floors/slabs/roofs to a Toposurface.  A User could follow this process when hosting a Floor (or Slab, Roof) to Topography:

 

a)Inherit Toposurface Points:

   -Interior Points:  The Floor inherits interior points (XYZ) from the host Toposurface.

   -This results in the Floor surface following the Toposurface faces exactly

OR

b)Specify Points:

   -Interior Points:  User specifies interior points X/Y locations.  Initial Z value is inherited from current Host Toposurface.

   -This option should notify the user when the topo changes and give them the option to update or not (similar to Wall by Face).

 

Note, in all cases:

   1. Boundary Point X/Y values are dictated by boundary line segment ends. Initial Z value is inherited from current Host Toposurface.

   2. All points, Boundary or Internal:  Z values may be edited after hosting.  When editing the floor shape, and upon selecting a point, the user could specify the point's Z location using any of the following:

      a)As an offset from the Host Toposurface Z-Elevation at that Point's XY.

      b)As an absolute value (relative to Sea Level)

      c)Relative to a specified Level (ie. Level 01, Level 02 etc.).

 

Cheers!

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Yes, please, to the request to be able to rotate model fill patterns that are applied to a sub-region.

 

Yes, please, to robust site modeling tools that include walks, roads, curbs, curb-cuts, ramps, storm drains, manholes, light poles, utility poles and wiring, fire hydrants, more landscaping and vegetation options, easy parking layout and paving symbols, and everything else necessary to put a building on a site. We don't always have perfect Civil3D topo-models, and there is (currently) no satisfactory way to import InfraWorks models into Revit as anything but NWD Coordination models. (Those don't render in Enscape3D). The Civil3D route is usually limited to the property boundaries and not the surrounding context.

 

We often get somewhat crude survey files that don't show changes in grade at curbs, or crowning of roads, and we have very little control of where Revit chooses to place a topo dot. I can drag it around or add more points, but this is a crap shoot in terms of getting what you want.

Contributor
Contributor

just like what other people said. 

 

I hope we will be able to host floors on topography directly. 

in many cases, I don't need a building pad or anything, just a floor on a toposurface. 

this is mainly with landscape design, for example in the pavement or parking or even car paths. 

 

El estado se ha cambiado a: Accepted

Congrats! We think this is a great idea, so we've decided to add it to our roadmap. Check out the Trello Revit Public Roadmap and add your vote there as well. Thanks for the suggestion!

Advisor
Advisor

@m.steffannoe see this idea regarding topography layers Multi-layered topography - Autodesk Community

Collaborator
Collaborator
Participant
Participant

This is not a request, this is a plea.

 

Every building I have worked on for the past 25 years has had a site and a context.  Every one!  Even when I was teaching students and the site and context were abstract, they still existed.  These are not civil engineering issues, they are architectural issues.  The civil tools for this are not what we need and I would prefer to never import another DWG from a civil engineer or landscape architect again.  I know that there are plug-ins for this, they are not what we need (though PlaceMaker is pretty amazing and does some of what we need).  Revit is a BUILDING modeler, every BUILDING has a site.

 

The quality of the built environment is suffering because of how poorly Revit handles site and context.  Not to mention all the time we waste with work arounds.  Revit has failing.

 

For all of the points outlined below, the implementation needs to fall into both categories, design and documentation, though sometimes more of one and sometimes more of the other.  These are concepts vaguely addressed in Revit already.

 

1. GIS support.  Revit needs to know where a building exits in the world.  At least this would make working with Civil 3D files less painful.  It would not solve the issue of getting files with some elements drawn at an arbitrary elevation and some elements drawn at a "true" elevation and some random lines between the two coordinate systems, but it would make it less painful.  This would also make it possible to work with context models more easily.  This would make model exchange less painful.  This underlying understanding is needed for some of the other ideas, like context.

 

2. The basics.  Roads and sidewalks etc.  Not split surfaces, those are pathetic.  Real categories and modeling tools for the elements outside a building which allow a human being to get into and out of a building.  I'm not going to make a list for you, go outside, snap a picture, and then add the categories for the things you see in Revit.

 

3. Topography.  For starters, can we please have it possible to manipulate and display topography using curves.  This has been broken for so long that a generation of architects has grown up thinking that faceting topo lines are correct!!!  Just because the underlying math and geometry is triangulate and faceted doesn't mean that we have to be subjected to that.  The real world is curved.  Again, go outside and look.  Topo lines are supposed to be curved.  Curved.  The topography also needs to behave correctly with the site elements (see item #2)  I would like to be able to draw a curb which follows a road and modifies the underlying topography correctly.  I want to know that I can trust my cut and fill calculations after I subtract a sidewalk or a site wall.

 

4. Grading rules.  Just like stairs, we have rules for slopes on a site.  We need to be able to specify that a sidewalk has a maximum cross slope and Revit needs to take care of the rest.  Particularly as this sidewalk intersects the boundary of our buildings.  I don't care if Civil 3D can do this, that is for civil engineers, they care about cars and highways, this is for humans.  Please let architects control this.  Sometimes it's because we need to solve this before a civil engineer is involved, sometimes it's because we need to solve discrepancies between civil and landscape, sometimes it's because it occurs above an occupied space and it's our responsibility, not civil or landscapes.  That's our problem, not yours, please include a complete tool set and we'll figure out how we work with our consultants and team mates.

 

5. A "context" Object Category.  Buildings have neighbors, elements which we need to see but not build.  This is not a workset issue, or a filter issue, or a linked file issue (remember, Revit doesn't use layers)  We need a category for the things around a building which are not in our scope to build, but are in our scope to understand.  Elements which cast shadows, or we cast shadows upon.  Elements who's views we can't block, or need to see over.  Elements which came before use, or might come after us.  Ugly, beautiful, historic, red-lined, big, small, to remain, or to be demo'd.  That's our problem, just give us a category for context.  Next year, you can give us a tool for importing all of that from OSM (Open Street Maps) or some such service, right now, just give us the category to start.  A token.

 

6. I don't care if this is hard (duh, of course it's hard, that's why we pay so much or our subscriptions).  You've had 23 years.  Skip the focus group, go outside, see how your building lands on the ground.  Right?  We need to be able to model all that stuff with native Revit elements.  No workarounds, no buy this other program, no plugins, no "we need to prioritize other feature and requests"  (Do those too!) site tools have been on the list since the road object category was added in 2000.  Native site tools.

 

Thank you,

Advisor
Advisor

100% agree, the fact that you cannot use a line to draw a path to set an elevation along the entire length in Revit within the topography tool is completely mind boggling. I don't want to have to place 10,000 points over a along some path to make sure the elevation is consistent along the entire length. Let me draw my own contours and specify the height.

El estado se ha cambiado a: Implemented

We are pleased to say that this has been implemented in Revit 2024! Thank you for your contribution to improving Revit!

 -The Factory

Participant
Participant

Thank you for improving the topography tool.  But please don’t check it off you list just yet.

 

To start, we’ve already been using floors as topography for over 10 years.  All the issues inherent in floors remain when we re-categorize them as topography.

 

Revit and (civil engineers) have normalized the idea of defining topography by points.  That’s fine for civil engineers, they don’t generally care about humans.  Humans are the architects responsibility.  To solve topography for humans we used topography lines.  Lines not points.

 

Lines not points, for emphasis.

 

Manipulating a surface by points is ugly and unintuitive for solving experiences.  It works for drainage, but we have much harder problems to solve than getting water to flow downhill.  A topo line is an experience of the landscape, a point is an abstraction.  Like a blade of grass vs a field of grass.

 

The improvements to the topography tool solve some technical issues (like being able to carve tunnels or complex pads) which will help out BIM managers scared of in-place families.  Thanks.

 

The problem with topography is points vs curves.  Please solve this for architects not civil engineers.

 

The best analogy I can come up with is a deer path.  Deer are lazy animals who follow the same elevation over and over, gradually marking a path in the landscape.  That path, marks an elevation.  In plan, that path is a curved line.  It may technically be made my many points… the hoof prints of the deer, put the organizing idea of all those individual points is the topo line.

 

As an architect, I am lazy like a deer.  I want/need to define a line, a curved line, at a particular elevation.  I do not want to manipulate the points even if they are the underlying mechanism of creating that curve in space.

 

Revit has been generating faceted topography for so long that folks think it’s normal.  It’s normal for video games and poly modeling, it’s not normal for architecture or site plans.

 

Revit topography is not fixed.  It still shows faceted surfaces (now with added thickness) and is still manipulated with points not curves.  I’m patient.  I waited 20 years for this improvement, I’ll wait anther 20 years and hope that the next iteration gets it right.

 

Revit topography went from garbage to useable, but it’s not solved.  Please don’t check it off the list.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Thanks, and finally there are improvements to the Toposurface tool.

 

This is a great improvement, also can still be improved further as mentioned by @andre.baros. As Architects we are constantly changing designs and building on the site, and the toposurface requires constant design changes as well.  Therefore, there needs to be tools to assist in the rapid editing and changes, with ease, to the topography to suit design changes as the project workflow progresses.

 

Hopefully in the next big update pack there are some additions to the toposurface tools.

Explorer
Explorer

One thing that would help me a lot with topography, is being able to choose the intersection angle of a pad with the natural topography.

For the time being, if I put a pad on a given topography it will create a volume that connects in 90° with the natural soil. This is completely unreal, since the soil when it has been modified has a "natural rest slope" of about 60° (depending on the soil). Adding a parameter for the natural slope angle would create a tremendous tool to calculate cuts and fillings volumes in projects where soil movement costs are paramount to define design strategies