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be able to reset parameter to NULL

If you set a value to a parameter (even Text), there's no way to get it back to "blank", and will therefore not group with other (new) elements properly. This example schedule is being sorted by Level, Type, z Offset, & Comments:

 

3840.02 GB schedule example (highlighted).png

 

WORKAROUND: In order to get the highlighted elements to display (group) correctly, you need to set the "empty" one to a value, then delete it (since Revit treats an empty string as different than a null value) so that it groups with existing elements that had their Comments field used & cleared. The problem is that you need to MANUALLY do this for ALL new elements from then on...

 

FYI, the schedule above is being used to do some QC correction (a user had incorrectly used both Type and Element comments instead of the Type Mark parameter).

 

Related idea & discussion:

 

Null value needed for dimensional parameters with scheduling capability - to display the null in a schedule as a "-", "---", "n/a", etc. [should make separate idea for casting dimension to a string]

 

Reset Numeric parameter value back to 'empty' - for an Integer parameter to be blank instead of showing "0" (zero), with steps to reset to null if it's not a built-in parameter?

 

Comentarios
Advisor
Advisor

Hi,

 

When you set up a number parameter - its value is blank.

 

Once you add a value - the parameter can never be set back to blank, only a number is accepted.

 

This is a real pain when dealing with schedules where some (doors, example) parameter requires a number value whereas most don't.

 

Text parameters don't have this problem.

 

Can we make the operation the same for all parameters and allow a blank value for numbers.

 

Thanks.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

It would be better to initialize values appropriately. For example, zero for numeric values. false for booleans, etc. A non-text parameter value should never be empty or uninitialized. Blank values would be better handled through a format setting in the tag or schedule field as it is with Excel: I.e., 'leave zero values blank'.

Advisor
Advisor

Yea, I wouldn't disagree with your comments - I think my main issue is that Revit is inconsistent in how it handle this.

 

Revit 'allows' a blank' initial value, but from then on it cannot be set back to blank.

 

I would be happy if number parameters always showed a value - zero when initialised and as you say, a format setting could handle the display.

 

 

Anonymous

Kevin,

 

I also want to allow a blank value for numbers

 

for me this would be not good to have zero from beginning. I prefer to have control zero or deactivate so no number see below why 

 

...for MEP we place dozen value in space tags and with shaft spaces if value is not activated tags are small once by mistake activate value and we need to keep schedule looks terrible

 

see standard tag ...as no one activate number

and here by mistake someone activated number and zero need to remain 

so we want to allow a blank values for numbers

 

 

2016-10-25 11_33_43Sim2015_C.png

Advisor
Advisor

Hi,

 

If you create a number parameter, initially it will be blank.

 

But once you've entered a value, you can never set it back to blank.

 

You can do this for text parameters.

 

Lets have some consistency here, allow blank values.

 

(For a formula Autodesk can set blank to generate the same value as zero)

Treating empty the same as null in grouping, sorting and filtering of parameters would also achieve the desired result for text parameters.

Anonymous

Now the integer fields which are empty cannot be used in formula's (calculated parameters) in schedules.

 

For example for parameter 'Test' which is an integer value, the formula 'if(Test = empty , 0, Test)

The formula would change all empty integer values of the 'Test' parameter into 0 and if this field is not empty it will remain unchanged.

Unfortunately there is currently no option to use this empty integer value in formula's...

 

Advisor
Advisor
I also would like resolution to this topic, but having the 'null' become 0 may not fit every circumstance. 0 is useful for addition/subtraction, but it could really screw things up with multiply/divide. It would be nice if each integer parameter could have a 'default to 0 or 1' option when null so the user could choose to be correct for each circumstance.
Collaborator
Collaborator

Let's improve the conditional formatting feature to allow text/symbol overrides instead of just color. Right now, if a schedule parameter is set to any of the default calculated values, such as flow, pressure loss, integer or number based, any null value is represented by a 0. Instead we need to bring back the ability to have a "-" dash or N/A text override value to be used, instead of just a color fill (which is our current solution) from the current conditional formatting behavior.

Advocate
Advocate

An excellent idea. I have often been frustrated by this inability. I use an integer parameter to manually sort sheets when the desired order needs to be customized. Usually I can keep this parameter blank for most sheet groupings. However, if an integer is accidentally added to a sheet that doesn't need manual sorting, I must resort to setting all of the other sheets in that group to the same integer so that it sorts typically. If I could just reset the value to null/empty, it would save time and frustration.

Contributor
Contributor

In my schedule, some elements consist of a total cost based on a Length parameter. Formula = ([meter price] *[length (mm)] /1000). Other Elements in the same schedule are not Line Based, so their formula is ([unit price]* [Unit Count Total]) .

 

So far no problems.

 

When i try to combine the two elements in a total cost parameter (([meter price] *[length (mm)] /1000)+([unit price]* [Unit Count Total])), Revit ignores the row value for the element based on number of units. This is because i can't ignore the Null value for the Length parameter in the element based on unit count.

 

In programs like Excel and Access it is possible to ignore ''blank'' Null values. So it should be possible in the year 2020 to use it in Revit aswell.

Anonymous

that is important for ifc exporting! plz add this function ! 

Contributor
Contributor

Very important not to have to show zeros in tags

Advocate
Advocate

Very important to be able to hide 0 in tags or make it possible to auto-hide 0 values

Also, Null value should be able to have a similar override line Varies has in schedules so we can replace it with "N/A" or "-" for instance

Advisor
Advisor

LOL. 9 votes in 2 minutes - someone must have been running a training and said "here, vote for this one". :símbolo_del_pulgar_hacia_arriba: If only I could get the same response from MY guys when I tell them to vote for something...

Participant
Participant

This must happen!

An operator that reported true if the value was undefined would solve the myriad of forum and ideas that deal with this problem. In other programming languages there is "empty()", so the example formula would be 'if(empty(Test), 0, Test)'.

 

 

Explorer
Explorer

Can Revit please add the functionality to display "0" values as N/A, blank or dash? We often have schedules where not all the parameters apply (eg. Air handling unit schedules with supply fan, return fan, heating and cooling coils - not every air handling unit has each component, but we want to show them in one schedule). It looks like are some complicated workarounds but this seems like a fairly basic functionality that could be added under conditional formatting. The alternative using text parameters for everything, but that defeats the whole point of Revit.

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

When working with data in Revit, it's quite important to be able to fully control the value of properties. This also includes setting a value to NULL for indicating that the value has not been decided yet. Setting a nummeric value to 0 is no solution, as this states that the designer/engineer has chosen 0 as the correct value, when in fact they don't have decided on a value.

I'm going to take back my earlier comment in case AutoDesk think I had offered an easy way out. The more I work with databases the more I want a BIM application that deals with building data first, rather than a 3D drawing app that lets you attach some limited values to things you've drawn. With data, "not yet determined" is quite different from "zero". Put it this way, if you climb out your office window is the risk of falling to your death zero (i.e. default assigned value) or "not yet determined" (i.e. null in the database)?

Participant
Participant

Hello, seeing if you can help me, I have a doubt that I believe you explain in part in this link but I'm not done understanding how to do it.
In this table I have a column "PRICE TOTAL M2" (calculated value) with prices per m2, but the last cell is of an element that is measured by ml, so I'm interested in putting 0 or nothing, and the column "PRICE TOTAL" it is a calculated value whose formula is PRECIO TOTAL M2+PRECIO TOTAL ML, the problem is that only the last one is added (1.48+23.60=25.08) and they should be summed all because the program understands that 38.21+empty cell=0.

The first problem is in the cell of 1.48 is a column of calculated value and the result is m2, but that value (1.48 is ml) so I'm interested that it leaves 0 or even empty.

The second problem is that REVIT takes the PRECIO TOTAL ML cells as EMPTY, and when performing the operation in the PRECIO TOTAL column, which is a sum of the two previous ones, it does not make the sum, well it only makes it with 1.48+23.60=25.08, the other columns do not put anything and tend to put 36.21,114.30.....319990011_1097263884300307_2110723478509901400_n.jpg

Collaborator
Collaborator

Really sad this is still an issue. Improvements with Filters for sure, but we need the same ability for calculated fields in schedules.

When an X parameter does not have a value, calculated fields that use that parameter also have no value. The only way I found to deal with this situation was to create two schedules: one filtering the elements in which X has a value and the other the elements in which X has no value.

 

This is a problem that has already been manifested in the forum since 2017: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-architecture-forum/schedules-quantitiy-problem-calculated-value...

 

I wish there was a better way to handle this, and for that I suggest two possible solutions:
1 - Consider null values as 0
2 - Have some way to put in a formula the verification of whether the parameter has a value or not

 

Thanks!

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I would add to this a request that formulas, schedules, calculated values, etc. be given a new function to allow us to TEST for NULL (uninitialized numbers, booleans, etc.) or EMPTY (string) values, and let US decide what to do with that, instead of simply failing to do anything.

 

 

if( ISNULLOREMPTY( MyParamValue ), UseSubstituteValue, MyParamValue)

 

 

This is a built-in function in most programming languages; it surely can't be that hard to add to Revit's own formula processing?

 

Similar ideas that could possibly be merged:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/be-able-to-reset-parameter-to-null/idi-p/7619047 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/yes-no-null-value-equivalent-to-no-in-conditional-stateme... 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/null-value-needed-for-dimensional-parameters-with-schedul... 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/formulas-and-filters-null-value-or-assumed-value-and-othe... 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/null-return-from-simple-if-sentence-for-family-parameters... 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/use-empty-integer-parameter-in-formula-s-in-schedules/idi... 

Participant
Participant

we need to be able to differentiate null value from zero (especially in schedules) currently you cannot preform any calculation any parameter has a null value. calculation should be able to be don on null values (if("parameter"="") or  if(HasValue("parameter") =true) ect.. this severely limits the functionality of schedules 

Participant
Participant

Revit schedule needs to be able to preform calculation on null values. (or be able to treat null values as 0) currently if you try to perform a calculation (calculated value) on parameter that has a null value, the result is always "null". even just being able to do thins like if("parameter"=null) would be an improvement, but currently it is like schedule don't even recognize what a null value is.

Advisor
Advisor

When schedules have numerical parameters those show up as blank. If I use those parameters for calculated parameters, I need to manually set them to "zero". If they stay blank, the calculation doesn't work. I had a help-thread here

 

It would be nice if such table entries would be zero by default. If zero is fine, I can leave it. if I need a different value, I have to enter it anyway. 

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Please provide an option or setting to allow the user to choose how uninitialized or null values are handled. Or allow "null" to be used in formulas. Right now, using a parameter that hasn't been "initialized" in a formula will break the formula and result in a blank value.

 

Currently, a simple formula like the following will result in a blank value if the condition (param1) is blank:

"If parameter1 is greater than 0, parameter1, else parameter2"

if(parameter1>0, parameter1, parameter2)

 

The obvious solution would be to let the unutilized value work in the formula. Logically, "uninitialized" is not greater than 0, since it isn't a number, but this solution may sow chaos. Who's to say "uninitialized" is greater or less than anything? (This is the current state of things.)

 

One way to handle uninitialized values would be to introduce <null> as an option when typing formula, for example:

"If parameter1 is not null, parameter1, else parameter2"

if(not(parameter1=<null>), parameter1, parameter2)

 

Another way would be to include a checkbox in the Schedule Properties, similar to the "Include elements in links" checkbox, that says "Treat uninitialized values as 0" or something to that effect. At least then the users could work around them with the appropriate formula.

 

A third way would be to introduce a setting in the Options menu to let the user choose how initialized values should be handled.

 

Many forum answers say to just input a value, 0, "fish," whatever, and the formula will work. They are correct. However, there are a range of end users of Revit, all at different skill levels, some people will see the blank and think the formula is broken (they'd be right), that Revit is not working (they're right again), and then they'll call over their compatriots, their IT departments, and so on until someone realizes you have to type in a zero for all of those blank fields. Then another user will decry the use of zero when a blank is perfectly acceptable. Then a third user will just "draw" the Schedule with detail lines and text boxes because "that's easier." You may scoff at the notion, but rest un-assured, this scenario is playing out at firms around the world, a silent struggle of BIM against text boxes...

 

So vote for this Idea. End the cycle.

Mentor
Mentor
Collaborator
Collaborator

@RDAOU now that's pretty cool...using a boolean just to disable/turn off the parameter so it returns a blank...???

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@RDAOU how did you do that?

@dbutts7 @sdcartmell One way to do this is to have a parameter that is permanently blank, use a calculated parameter and leave the formula empty, then make another calculated parameter for display and use something like "if(Make Value, blank_Length, Height)". The blank parameter needs to be of the same type as the display parameter. Here are some examples from my door schedule, you end up with a lot of hidden parameters in the schedule, but the output is much more readable...

 

MichaelWarwick7522_0-1736824635123.png MichaelWarwick7522_1-1736824725109.png

 

Mentor
Mentor

@sdcartmell 

 

there was a question posted on the revit forum yesterday (Link in previous reply) which basically led me to this Idea where I thought the link might be useful for someone. The trick shown in the GIF is only doable within the project environment. 

 

Blank Schedule values 2.gif

 

The limitation of not allowing users to add or use nulls in the family environment and/or arithmetic formulas, is ultimately in everyone's best interest. 

 

 

Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@RDAOUOh sorry, I didn't notice the link before, thank for following up! @MichaelWarwick7522  Thanks for explaining it!

Collaborator
Collaborator

Great answers folks - thanks!!!

 

Note to the Autodesk development team looking at this idea - those last couple of posts do not suggest that there is a solution or work-around for this problem, nor is it "working as designed". There is no solution to using values for sorting in schedules, display in tags, nor for in-family text. Even for the purpose of schedule display having to have 3 parameters instead of one is confusing for most users and frustrating for the BIM managers who have to keep training users in complex work arounds and building these into templates, families, and projects.