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Sketches Losing their Projections when Parameters Updated

dallinN5N4D
Contributor

Sketches Losing their Projections when Parameters Updated

dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

I'm having issues with sketches losing the geometry they are based on/projected from whenever I update the parameters. This is a consistent issue I've been dealing with in several different situations. I've been using workarounds for a lot of them, but I'm not sure what to do here. I want to break the original part into four pieces with dovetails to join them.

 

Everything's working here

dallinN5N4D_0-1700668825011.png

 

Here I changed the parameters to AB:80, A1:40, A2:85, B1:85, B2:40 - and now the dovetails have lost their position.

dallinN5N4D_2-1700669012241.png

 

An explanation of what's going on or suggestions what I can do would be appreciated, thanks!

 

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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

I will check the file later, 2 questions,

the parameter change is supposed to shorten the bottom leg?

Why would you make the males on the clockwise side of the bisection?

 

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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

The parameter changes about doubled the size of the part. I need to be able to adjust the part anywhere from 6"x20" to 48" x 84". It's almost never a perfect square.

 

I want the parts to only fit together one way - less risk someone puts it together backward. The actual orientation of the dovetails isn't super important to me.

 

The model is used to generate about 100 unique variations a day that are sent into production, so I need a reliable solution. I've been cutting straight lines without the dovetails using the plane and split body functions, but I want to add the dovetails to improve assembly.

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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

You have broken Colinear constraints, made me ask the first question, but you didn’t answer, 


another way, my changes will need to shorten the bottom leg, or no that is part of the problem.

I need the rectangle.

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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

I need to be able to shorten or lengthen the bottom leg, or any, or all of them. Resizing the legs is not the issue I'm having, the issue is that the dovetail's get lost when ever I do.

 

I did create some funky geometry to accommodate using an offset on the dovetails, I'll mess with that. Funky geometry aside, I'd still expect fusion to track the geometry that is projected into sketches.

 

Here I lengthened the bottom, left, and right legs and the dovetails are where I expect them.

dallinN5N4D_1-1700684495481.png

 

Here I shortened the left leg and it lost the dovetail in the bottom left corner.

dallinN5N4D_2-1700684676223.png

 

 

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jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

I think that, before we look at projection (I actually don't believe the projections are wrong, but that is for later), we need to just look at Frame Sketch:

Screenshot 2023-11-22 at 3.07.07 PM.png

 

There is a whole bunch of missing constraints here, that, I think, lead to bad behavior.  From the start the left side is not even vertical (which I suspect you want it to be).  I think that leads to this sketch behaving very badly on parameter changes.  If I just do step 1 (AB to 80), I get an error.  Step 2 (A1 to 40) results in this:

 

Screenshot 2023-11-22 at 3.11.10 PM.png

 

At that point, you should stop and not try to go farther, until this base sketch is better behaved.  

 

This geometry is very simple - just two rectangles.  A couple of suggestions:

  1. Use the standard two-point rectangle - it will have all the necessary constraints.  If you dimension it, it will be fully constrained
  2. I would not use offset for something so simple.  Just add a second rectangle, and dimension the distance.  To be honest, that is because I know offset, even with simple geometry, sometimes has problems.  That is not ideal, I know, but, if your interest is getting this to work, I would stay away from offset.
  3. that, by itself, should fix this base sketch
  4. the rest of your design should be much better behaved now

 


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

Thanks for the input, I realize I should have given a better explanation of what I'm trying to do. These models are used to produce custom fit parts base on measurements received. The measurements are never a perfect square which is why I left out the vertical and horizontal constraints. Additionally I use almost 40 different shapes some of which include splines, which are more difficult to duplicate without using an offset. I just used the "square" for demonstration purposes because it's the most simple.

 

Right now I use surface offsets and split bodies to create the geometry I need, because it seems to be more reliable for whatever reason. The issue with this is that it makes constructing the model more difficult and less intuitive if it needs to be modified. I might be able to create the dovetail using these features, but that will be more difficult and take longer.

 

Either way, I'm still losing the projections from sketches and It's causing me a ton of issues. I lose projected sketches when I try to pull measurements from geometry that doesn't include offsets. I asked about that in another post. I've been using workarounds with varying success.

 

With the configurations and logic update I've been trying to revamp all my models and would love to get this issue figured out.

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jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

OK, thanks.  But, a lot of what I said still stands:  You should first get your base sketch worked out.  Create your base sketch and your user parameters, and then exercise the heck out of it, making sure that it behaves as you expect before proceeding.  In this case, that does not happen.  So, that should still be your first step.  In your simple example, I would not use those diagonal dimensions to control the shape, I would probably use angle dimensions, but that is preference.  The key is testing your sketch.  If it behaves as you want, then great.

 

Regarding offset:  I understand that offset is sometimes useful, even necessary.  I just tend to avoid it myself, whenever I can, because I know that downstream references to the offset geometry can be fragile.  See:  not-sure-why-this-explodes-so-much .  So, I avoid it when I can.  Sometimes Thin Extrude can work around this - just draw one set of curves, and use Thin Extrude to generate a thickened version of that set of curves.  Sometimes it is easier to draw a second set of geometry.  You have to consider the whole cost here.  Yes, the initial creation might take longer, but if you spend more time later fixing things, is that initial shortcut worth it?

 

Regarding broken projections.  I do not see any broken projections in the sample model.  I may have done something differently, but the projections here are solid in my testing.  It really helps if your projections come from a face, and not edge-by-edge.  Edges are more fragile.  If you just sketch on the top face of Extrude1, I expect the projections will never fail.  Now, what I do see is that the additional lines for the dovetails come loose.  I suspect that will be better if you fix your initial sketch behavior.  The reaction of that first sketch to the parameter changes was so severe, and involved errors along the way, that I suspect that there is some correlation to those error states.

 


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

Yep I can repeat this here, OP file and even with new file.  At first I figured there was not enough geometry to fully constrain, so I rebuild the cut profile (with more geometry) and changing the frame left them behind.

 

@jeff.strater or @Phil.E 

Presume the Op did as I did, copy paste then constrain the profile.  Had the sketch fully constrained, and changed the frame layout, the profiles did not follow the update.  New sketch lines not copy pasted, did update correctly.  But sketch failed with coincident constraint errors after pasting.  Forgot to save my file.

 

Jeff, After reading your submissions, I was projecting corner points, not the whole frame or face, and 2 edges for the bottom left cut alignment, joining the corner points did not fail, but attaching a copy pasted profile, unhooked the lot.

I presumed only top item to be horizontal, and let the rest go where it has to.

 

Might help...

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jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

"Presume the Op did as I did, copy paste then constrain the profile.  Had the sketch fully constrained, and changed the frame layout, the profiles did not follow the update"

 

I'm not sure I understand "the profiles did not follow the update".  The OP is reporting that sketch projections did not follow the update.  Same thing?  Can you provide a video of what you did?  Thanks!  I still think that the source of the problem is that first sketch.

 


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

Same as his first pic, larger frame but miter cut profiles he was using stay put.

I used a centre point rectangle, removed the h/v constraints from all but the top one, dimension the diagonal lines, 

Offset the frame, to get the extrude and the corner points for the mitre cut alignment.  They did not fail until I copy pasted the profile to the other 3 corners.

 

ttsnf.PNG

 

rebuilding but on my way out the door, so far this does not fail.

Will see if Thin Extrude dove tail cuts start to fail. Dovetail to align to construction line and midpoint.

 

Might help...

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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

I have updated the file, can't break it with my testing.

 

I did not

Copy paste the profile for the dovetail.

I did not use Sketch Offset in those Profiles.

 

I did 

Project only necessary points and lines to get the job done in sketch 2.

Draw and constrain each profile.

Used Thin Extrude to cut the profile as required, tolerances to the OP.

Profile extended past the projected points for very acute angles, accommodated.

Profile has 1 symmetry constraint set.

 

Might help....

 

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Christoph_360
Collaborator
Collaborator

Hello

 


@dallinN5N4Dwrote:

 

Here I changed the parameters to AB:80, A1:40, A2:85, B1:85, B2:40 - and now the dovetails have lost their position.

dallinN5N4D_2-1700669012241.png


I've changed some stuff and now it should work.

 

 

Thanks

Christoph

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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

Thanks for all the feedback. I was out of town, but now I'm back to work.

 

@jeff_strater that other post was helpful and makes sense how offsets get messed up. I'll keep messing with the workaround you suggested.

 

@davebYYPCU I copied the way you sketched the dovetail, that was a more elegant solution.

 

@Christoph_360 I didn't quite follow the changes you made, I'll go over your model again. I changed the parameters in your model the same way I did in this video and still lost the dovetail.

 

I've attached a modified and simplified file. Even with these changes I'm still losing projections. When I update the parameters on this model I don't see any issues with constraints being broken, I just see the warning that it failed to compute.

 

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Christoph_360
Collaborator
Collaborator

Hello

 


@dallinN5N4Dwrote:

 

@Christoph_360 I didn't quite follow the changes you made, I'll go over your model again. I changed the parameters in your model the same way I did in this video and still lost the dovetail.


You can select the configuration with its values, no explanation why it doesn't work for you.

 

 

Thanks

Christoph

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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

@Christoph_360  thanks for the help, when I first updated the parameters the sketches lost their projections. In this video the sketches lose their projections when I change the configuration to a model then back again to the original. The issue with configurations is that I'll generate 100 unique versions a day, so creating a new configuration for each one is too time consuming, unless this is something I'm able to get a script written for.

 

 

I really just want to get the projected sketch issue figured out. I've been using workarounds for several features, but with the dovetail and other features I need to add to the model I don't know what to do. Not being able to rely on projected sketches really causes me issues. I know the way I dimension things in my first sketch is probably not normal, but that's what I have to work with, and has worked reliably for thousands of variations (other than projected sketches and sketch offsets). I'm fully defining my sketches so I'd expect fusion to be able to handle things.

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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

Any input? I think we've isolated the issue and it looks like a bug in Fusion360 to me. Is this something that can/will be fixed or do I need to be looking for other solutions?

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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

Have you done a testing session with my file?

If you can break it, can you tell me how you did that?

I can only test so much if it's not breaking..... publish it.

 

I don't need configurations here, so I don't have an easy capability to test your config files.  (Only a saved set of parameter changes anyway)

 

It's not the Projections that are failing, from your original file, can you tell me what item you want to be in line with these projected lines?  Red constraint icons are broken.  You are using colinear in the wrong places.

 

colnr.PNG

 

I am not sure what you output from this work in fusion to - other software, workshop, drawings, etc.

 

Happy to help if I can.

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dallinN5N4D
Contributor
Contributor

@davebYYPCU thanks for the help. Here's a video of me breaking your model. I'm just updating the parameters, which is what I do with the model. I'm nesting the frame pieces and sending a CAM file to our CNC machines. I'm doing all of this with Fusion 360.

 

 

I was using the colinear constraints to compensate for the changes in angle with the offset I was using on the dovetail. You showed me a better way of creating the dovetail and in my most recent model I removed the colinear constraints. Now even without these constraints my model is still breaking. Here's the video of this again, as you can see no constraints are being broken, but the sketch is not following the projection.

 

 

This looks like a bug to me, unless there's something I'm still missing. I've attached the model used in the second video.

 

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davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant
Accepted solution

Oops, I must have attached the wrong version,

I know I had a version where the crossing diagonals were on the Origin.

 

No matter, after watching the videos. There are known bugs for large incremental parameter changes, and sometimes also involve Projections, I have restructured the file, and again so far, I can't break this one.

 

In this version I added the construction miter lines to sketch 1.  Only projected those, and built the dovetail cut on those projections.  Used more Equals Constraint, and less dimensioning.

 

Might help....

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