Mac Install Location

[bback3C2RW]

Every other program is able to install itself into the main /Applications folder on macs.  Literally every one.

Why does Fusion360 install to /users/(username)/Library/Application Support/Autodesk/webdeploy/production/kjsdahgtfi832q47t659823465792384579, where absolutely no one will ever be able to find it?

Previous solutions were "install from the Mac App Store," but now that it's no longer an option, users are forced to create an alias (which ruins the workflow), but only if they know to do this before they close the program and remove it from the dock.

I really don't care why this is the way it is, I have other Autodesk programs that were able to install themselves to the proper location.  Every other program I've ever installed has also installed itself into the proper location.  This is a problem unique to Fusion360 that I have never had to deal with and shouldn't even be a problem to begin with.

Just fix it.

[PhDEdd]

I think "different" is probably a bit too generous for what is poor practice and non-standard in the Mac realm.

It's appreciated that the headaches with Spotlight appear fixed, but the goal should still be for the app to be as compliant with platform standards as possible.

[lance.carocci]

I get that, and like I said, it's not no, it's just not as high a priority at this time given the perceived cost and benefits.

In the meantime, if you can share the Apple or Microsoft developer documentation advising against this practice, perhaps that would help, too - our understandings of what is compliant and standard seem to differ.

[jeffjenkins1Y8BVV]

Totally agree - 99% of applications are installed in one place so everyone knows where to find them in (any) case of need - but not Fusion... It just does not make sense and arguing that there is nothing wrong with it is not helping anyone. Please just put it where it should be like nearly EVERY other software developer does on a mac.  It IS poor practice and I would be embarrassed to be installing it in this non-standard location. 

[PhDEdd]

Autodesk is deliberately obtuse on this. It shouldn't need to be a "priority", or have any costs – it should have been correctly in the Applications folder to begin with! You guys worked harder to contravene this practice.

"our understandings of what is compliant and standard seem to differ"

Exactly, which is why this thread exists. Almost every professional app, and almost every amateur app (as pointed out above) does it correctly.

[jeffjenkins1Y8BVV]

It's very simple - On the mac open finder.  On the left there are a list of things. One of them is "applications".  You click on that and it shows all the applications on your mac.  Except for Fusion 360...

That's it - pure simple as that.  According to the standard Apple UI, Fusion360 doesn't even exist!

[lance.carocci]

Yes, that's true. We consciously made a decision a decade ago that Fusion shouldn't require admin permissions to install - thinking this was a benefit to users - using established practices for user-level installations.

It's clear that design decision has run its course with some, but even if it does change eventually, that still requires refactoring build configurations, changing validation practices, and updating documentation to reflect new restrictions.

Hopefully when the day comes to finally make this change, it brings you the happiness you seek. In the meantime, I thank you for your patience.

[PhDEdd]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to us, Lance. It is appreciated. There are plenty of apps where we have no idea if feedback is even received.

[lance.carocci]

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@jeffjenkins1Y8BVV wrote:

It's very simple - On the mac open finder.  On the left there are a list of things. One of them is "applications".  You click on that and it shows all the applications on your mac.  Except for Fusion 360...

That's it - pure simple as that.  According to the standard Apple UI, Fusion360 doesn't even exist!

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You're referring to the default Favorites in Finder, yes? You might try customizing this list to provide yourself some relief in the meantime. Alternately, Spotlight search skips the need to open Finder at all.

[jeffjenkins1Y8BVV]

Why do no other (well a very small number, can be counterd on one hand) companies not install to the applications directory?  You seem to have fallen into the "we can't change anything, things might break!" mentality which is not a very good place to be, it makes your development processes sluggish and non-responsive to change requests - I have seen it many times in a lifetime in the software industry but with all the modern tools at your disposal like automated regression testign and change management testing you should not be so afraid of making such changes.  You need to embrace change and see how ridiculous this situation is as  compared to nearly every other developer you are installing in a non-standard place.  Thank you for considering but it doesn't sound like there is any appetite at autodesk to amend this so we will have to be much more than just patient.

Everyone normally installs to the applications directory at / - you install to /Users/<name>/Library/Application... which isn't easy remember or find

[lance.carocci]

Since I'm feeling like a chatter mouth this afternoon, you should know that moving to admin-level installs most likely means deprecating the current installer as you know it, and moving to the same service used by other major Autodesk apps, e.g. AutoCAD, Inventor, etc., called ODIS (On-Demand Installation Service).

We on the Fusion development team do not work on that codebase, but if you have any other Autodesk products installed, you might give it a try to get an idea of how the process might change.

[fleedar]

These are older, deprecated resources, so you may well be right that Apple and Microsoft don’t currently advise against installing applications wherever a developer feels like, but I don’t think you can argue that they aren’t decades-old conventions.

https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPFileSystem/Articles/Wh...

Applications should be placed in the /Applications directory or the ~/Applications directory of the current user. Applications placed in the /Applications directory are available to all users on the system. Applications placed in a user’s home directory are available only to that user.

All of the resources and data files required for an application to run should reside inside the application bundle. However, applications often come with extra files, such as templates, plug-ins, and other application extensions over which the user has some degree of control, including whether or not they should be installed. Similarly, an application might generate cache and temporary files that should not reside in the application bundle.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/win_cert/certification-requirements-for-windows-desk...

10. Apps must install to the correct folders by default

Users should have a consistent and secure experience with the default installation location of files, while maintaining the option to install an app in the location of their choice. It is also necessary to store app data in the correct location to allow several people to use the same computer without corrupting or overwriting each other's data and settings. Windows provides specific locations in the file system to store programs and software components, shared app data, and app data specific to a user

10.1 Your app must be installed in the Program Files folder by default

For native 32-bit and 64-bit apps in %ProgramFiles%, and %ProgramFiles(x86)% for 32-bit apps running on x64. User data or app data must never be stored in this location because of the security permissions configured for this folder.

[beananimal]

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@lance.carocci wrote:

I need you to understand that writing to the system Applications & Library folders and modifying system-wide configuration requires elevated permissions. Accordingly, it is standard convention to not install to this folder if those permissions are disallowed or not required.

You're essentially asking for us to require more permissions than necessary to install the product, just for the sake of being in a different directory. I fully understand the desire to keep everything consistent, but I hope you can understand how that outcome is not a high priority relative to other platform development requested by Fusion's userbase.

We didn't invent the user Applications or Library folders - they exist exactly for this reason.

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Lance, installing software and modifying system-wide configuration settings SHOULD require elevated permissions. That, is tenet of modern system security. The "applications" folder is where Mac users almost universally manage their applications from. I have owned an IT firm for over two decades. In almost every instance where an "application" does not follow this convention, it is a nightmare to maintain, be it by IT staff or simple home users. 

We are asking your application to install and behave like virtually every other application out there.

[beananimal]

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@lance.carocci wrote:

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Being able to <cmd+space>, "fu", <return> to open Fusion would be much nicer than having to open a random and temporary app that you've hopefully put in the dock (which is subject to break again with each update or force-quitting of Fusion).

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Ah, I understand now. Spotlight should be working. That's a big reason we why no longer use a shortcut in the Applications folder (shortcuts by default do not display in Spotlight results). What, if any, results appear for you?

At a glance, I can open Fusion from Spotlight without issue.

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But "Spotlight" is a tool that is not universally used by Mac users and should not be an expected workflow to find and use your application. It sometimes breaks, and even at that, your installer is terrible and we often end up with MULTIPLE versions.  Why should we have to manually run a cleanup utilityu constantly to find and fix the proper Fusion icon and where it points to?

Many of us utilize the Dock - as it stands. I end up with "old" and "new" Fusion icons on the dock. Sometimes after updates, sometimes randomly, sometimes after a crash or a reboot. This is not isolated to a single machine. 

But - this conversation is moot.  If Fusion behaved properly and followed common convention, we would not be having it.

[beananimal]

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@lance.carocci wrote:

Installing to the system folder would not magically fix that. If your shortcuts are breaking, it is likely because of the fact that Fusion downloads an updated executable side-by-side with the existing version, then updates the shortcut  (which, incidentally, is also a fairly common practice).

It might be more productive to describe the actual problems you are facing rather than what you think is the culprit, because our investigations often lead us to an entirely different root cause.

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The culprit, Lance, is poor software design. I don't have a single other application that exhibits this behavior on update. The only close contender is ConnectWise ScreenConnect that does install in the user context and is a poorly piece of software itself. But they have an excuse, they are are dealing with remote access and fighting with Apple (and Microsoft) to not be blocked at a system level due security implications.

[jeffjenkins1Y8BVV]

Then why does every other developer use the applications folder?????  Your reasoning is illogical and wrong.

[jeffjenkins1Y8BVV]

Then why do hardly any other developers do the same????  Your reasoning may be sound but in practise you are clearly wrong.

[beananimal]

Jeff - I have no clue what you are talking about. 

I am advocating that AD install and manage Fusion in the MacOs system applications folder, and not a local user's library or for that matter the local ~applications folder. While there are exceptions, by far almost all applications use the system applications folder on MacOS and "program files" folders on Windows. 

I am also advocating that AD use standard install and update practices and  migrate away from whatever (clearly not working well) install and update framework they are currently using. 

I am also advocating that they stop using in application "pop up" style dialogs for system messages, be they the unwanted advertisements for add-ins or license deals or actual system messages regarding backups, outages, etc. Not only are they insanely bothersome, but on MacOS they tend to steal focus or cause graphics clipping where the Fusion dialog appears over top of the active application when Fusion is minimized or in the background. Both Microsoft and Apple have notification interfaces precisely for that type of functionality. 

[jeffjenkins1Y8BVV]

sorry, misread your post I thought you were agreeing with the autodesk decision, please ignore me, I agree with you.

[beananimal]

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@jeffjenkins1Y8BVV wrote:

sorry, misread your post I thought you were agreeing with the autodesk decision, please ignore me, I agree with you.

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All good 🙂

[mJYUA9]

Amazing to see this forum grow - tho not so being brought together by this widely experienced (Microsoft & Apple) CRASH-BANG-DATALOSS user experience. 99 Replies from  one, self-replicating existential failure in Design Thinking. (Don’t mind the stinkin’ little UX FuXups – where’s the beef?)

We might all take note & thank lance.carocci (Autodesk} for contributing a key insight into the source of our collective discontent. It appears that this persistent failure in design re-thinking is NOT recursing in the fusion dev team, but rather within the Installer dev institution. Here, ‘institution’ may present a good working model, as the installation architecture lance alludes to appears to have been frozen in form sometime in the pay-per-seat CAD workstation era. At least his arguments read like bullet points on a security architecture review foil of that era – mo’c