Another design trashed by Derive!

[HughesTooling]

OK I'll try again, I've reported 4 or 5 times on the forum about designs being trashed because I can no longer "Get Latest" in a derived design, not once have I had a reply from anyone at AutoDesk.

Really coming to the conclusion Derive is too unstable to use for production work and should be avoided! Didn't make any edits to the source design, just added so new components. In the previous problem designs I think edits made changes to bodies within a component so originally a component had Body1 but after an edit splitting or joining I the component ended up with a different body number.

Here's the latest error report. Thank you for sending your error report CER_223692476 to Autodesk.

Mark

Edit 1.

Just made a copy of the folder to a project I can share with AutoDesk and tried updating the copy and get the same crash. 

Edit 2.

Looking at the copied version it's not going to be any use to support as although I have new copies of all the designs, the derived designs are linked to the original designs not the new copies. So pretty useless, same as copying a project with 2d drawing, the 2d drawing end up linked to the old designs not the new copies.

Thank you for sending your error report CER_223693053 to Autodesk.

Edit 3.

Tried running a Compute All in the derived design and Fusion crashed again. So seems like there's something wrong in the derive design and trying to get latest is probably doing something similar to compute all while updating?

Thank you for sending your error report CER_223693971 to Autodesk.

[HughesTooling]

Done some more experimenting and found if I edit the derive feature and unselect 2 subcomponents I don't get a crash.

The odd thing is if I only unselect one (either one) when I click OK Fusion crashes! If I unselect both and click OK I don't crash and I can then use Edit Derive Feature again and reselect those 2 components and Fusion doesn't crash, then I can use Get Latest and still no crash!

Seems like the IDs for those 2 components might be corrupt or clashing for some reason.

Mark

[Fully_Defined]

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@HughesTooling wrote:

Done some more experimenting and found if I edit the derive feature and unselect 2 subcomponents I don't get a crash.

The odd thing is if I only unselect one (either one) when I click OK Fusion crashes! If I unselect both and click OK I don't crash and I can then use Edit Derive Feature again and reselect those 2 components and Fusion doesn't crash, then I can use Get Latest and still no crash!

Seems like the IDs for those 2 components might be corrupt or clashing for some reason.

Mark

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Absent knowing anything about your work or workflow outside of the screenshot you just posted, could my argument about not promoting everything to a component be relevant here? You have a subcomponent stack five deep! Because you can derive anything, if all you need is a body then maybe that's all you should derive? Again, knowing nothing about what you do.

I have a zoom scheduled with Autodesk tomorrow to go over some workflow questions including derive.

[jeff_strater]

Hey, Mark, is it at all possible that those two components were created copy and pasting and then further modification?  We've closed a lot of the holes caused by this, but it could be that Derive still has problems.  If you remember, this can cause an identity crisis in a component that used to cause a ton of Joints issues.

[edit] - by "copy and pasting and then further modification", I really mean Save As of the document, or data panel copy/paste (assuming that these designs are external).  This can cause some duplicate identity information in the two designs, and it becomes hard to tell them apart.  Usually this does not result in a crash, but there could be a Derive issue here.

[Phil.E]

Thanks Mark. Can you send a link to that design? (the one with those two components). It sounds like it's reproducible by deriving that whole design in.

[HughesTooling]

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@jeff_strater wrote:

Hey, Mark, is it at all possible that those two components were created copy and pasting and then further modification?  We've closed a lot of the holes caused by this, but it could be that Derive still has problems.  If you remember, this can cause an identity crisis in a component that used to cause a ton of Joints issues.

[edit] - by "copy and pasting and then further modification", I really mean Save As of the document, or data panel copy/paste (assuming that these designs are external).  This can cause some duplicate identity information in the two designs, and it becomes hard to tell them apart.  Usually this does not result in a crash, but there could be a Derive issue here.

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@jeff_strater  Those 2 components where originally imported in a STP file assembly. Hasco have a download here that generates a complete mould assembly, after import I remove all the screws and washers, move parts into place then enable history, then create a group in the timeline to contain all the components and base features this creates.

This mould needed a copy of one of the plates (K60) and I have had problems creating copies inside of a group in the past (Copy\Paste New), not sure if I had problems in this design. It always happens when I too busy to make a report and when I had some time and tried to reproduce the problem in a design I could share it worked perfectly.🙄 This problem has happened more than once so there is something flaky somewhere.

The copies can be seen here.

Mark

[HughesTooling]

@Phil.E  @jeff_strater  I'll DM you a download link to the copy I made. If you run a Compute All it should crash or if you edit the derive feature and remove any component apart from the 2 problem ones it also crashes when you click OK.

Mark

[HughesTooling]

@Fully_Defined  What I do is create a mould in my source design then export all parts that need machining to a derived design and do all the CAM work there. I try and do as little design work in the derived file as possible because I've found Fusion get quite sluggish if there's too much info in one design. Also I need to derive the components as I need access to the sketches.

I've tried just deriving the components individually but derive puts them all at the top level in the browser and it is very difficult to manage and work with like this. The first few times I used Derive I didn't realise I could select the top level component in the source design then unselect components I don't need and maintain the design assembly\subassembly structure. Like this it's a lot easier to manage and find components rather than the chaos I had with all components at the top level.

Mark

[HughesTooling]

@jeff_strater  Just a bit more info on the procedure I've used copying a component inside a group. I roll the timeline back to where I want the copy, select the component in the browser and copy, right click the component I want the copy in and paste new.

Below is after the Paste New. I rolled back to the red vertical line then Paste New. You can see there's something a bit odd with the light grey line in the timeline.

Mark

[HughesTooling]

@Phil.E  @jeff_strater  After writing the post above I found the design is corrupted badly after rolling the timeline to the end. As you have access to the design from the link I DMed you, you should be able to reproduce (Note this is the source design not the derived design). Here's a screencast, not after the Paste New and roll to end of timeline all components after the paste are missing from the browser and no options to edit the base features in the timeline(after the pate).

Mark

[Fully_Defined]

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@HughesTooling wrote:

@Fully_Defined  What I do is create a mould in my source design then export all parts that need machining to a derived design and do all the CAM work there. I try and do as little design work in the derived file as possible because I've found Fusion get quite sluggish if there's too much info in one design. Also I need to derive the components as I need access to the sketches.

I've tried just deriving the components individually but derive puts them all at the top level in the browser and it is very difficult to manage and work with like this. The first few times I used Derive I didn't realise I could select the top level component in the source design then unselect components I don't need and maintain the design assembly\subassembly structure. Like this it's a lot easier to manage and find components rather than the chaos I had with all components at the top level.

Mark

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That's helpful. Thank you.

[jeff_strater]

Thanks, @HughesTooling - I can reproduce these problems.  I will log those as soon as I get a chance.  There is definitely something wrong with Copy/Paste New - whether it is specific to that component or not, or is a more general problem, we'll have to see.  I noticed that after the Paste New, I could not even rename the new component.  So, I think this does all stem from some original problem.  And, it's not the problem I first noticed, because that would require external components and Save As...