Why does the auto look at sketch option have such broken logic?

Why does the auto look at sketch option have such broken logic?

chris.eganY2EK3
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Message 1 of 13

Why does the auto look at sketch option have such broken logic?

chris.eganY2EK3
Advocate
Advocate

I can't tell if this problem is getting worse or if I'm just working with more diverse designs. But the logic that dictates how the screen auto orients when a sketch is started seems broken. 

1. Many times the view will rotate 90 degrees for no perceivable reason. Meaning I can be looking at the model with Z+ (top) pointed up, and when I create a sketch it for some reason spins so Z+ points right. Often times this flies in the face of what fits on the screen well. A model that is roughly rectangular often orients so the longer section is vertical, which makes less of it fit on screen when zoomed in. But more annoyingly, I often purposely orient the model the way I want it before selecting a plane to sketch on, and it rotates to a worse orientation. I have purposely clicked the Front face of the orientation cube to align the view, then created a sketch on the front face, and watched fusion spin the view 90°. I cannot figure out what the logic here is. 

 

2. Often the auto orient moves the selected plane/face completely off screen. On larger models, if I select a small face somewhere to sketch on the auto orient moves that face completely off screen. This seems to happen even in models where I hide other components so only the component that is active is showing. The screen orients as if all components are visible and I'm left looking at a blank area with nothing visible on screen because the selected face is somewhere off screen. It would honestly be less annoying if it did the equivalent of a double middle click to bring all parts of the model into view after orienting. 


I realize this is all manageable, I've been manually fixing these issues for a long time. And yes, I could not use the option. But when the feature works in the expected way it is incredibly helpful. If there are reasons for it acting like described I'd love to understand them. 

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Message 2 of 13

seth.madore
Community Manager
Community Manager

@chris.eganY2EK3 wrote:

If there are reasons for it acting like described I'd love to understand them. 


+1 to this, I often just have it turned off for some of the reasons you describe.


Seth Madore
Customer Advocacy Manager - Manufacturing


Message 3 of 13

chris.eganY2EK3
Advocate
Advocate

I should have added that this isn't limited to just the sketch option, the "look at" tool acts the same, presumably because the sketch option is just using the "look at" tool. 

The look at tool often kicks the selected face off screen and rotates the view as well. The only logic I can find is that it is trying to snap the global origin to the center of the screen, even if that means moving the selected face/plane off screen. Why is the logic not to center the selection on the screen instead?

Message 4 of 13

kellings
Advisor
Advisor

Unfortunately, this has been a problem for a very very long time. Hopefully more users will reply here with their dissatisfaction so that Autodesk can finally address the problem. There are plenty of times when I start a sketch and am practically looking normal to the sketch plane and the model rotates by 90 degrees. 

 

 

Kevin Ellingson
Technical Specialist

If my post resolves your issue, please click the Accept Solution button.
Message 5 of 13

jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

"Many times the view will rotate 90 degrees for no perceivable reason. Meaning I can be looking at the model with Z+ (top) pointed up, and when I create a sketch it for some reason spins so Z+ points right. Often times this flies in the face of what fits on the screen well."

 

Sketch look at always orients the view so that the Sketch X axis is horizontal.  Each sketch has a coordinate system of its own, and the view is oriented so that X is horizontal on the screen.  The X axis is red, the Y axis is green.  That is the "perceivable reason".


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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Message 6 of 13

chris.eganY2EK3
Advocate
Advocate

So it kicks the selected face off screen because it's programmed to always put global origin in the center if view, and it rotates because it's hard coded to orient the X axis a certain direction. And no consideration is given to what the user is doing. 


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Message 7 of 13

jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

"always put global origin in the center if view"  Sketch Origin, not global origin.  Small point, but somewhat important.

 

"no consideration is given to what the user is doing"  That does not seem to be a fair criticism, but OK.


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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Message 8 of 13

chris.eganY2EK3
Advocate
Advocate

Respectfully, it seems a fair criticism. If a user is purposely selecting a face on a part as the sketch plane, and the auto look at feature causes that face to move off screen while the sketch is being created, that is ignoring the intensions of the user. I went through this roughly 30 times in a single model yesterday, I needed to sketch on small faces of a larger model, and the vast majority of these faces were not aligned with the global XY, XZ, YZ planes. Every single sketch caused the view to swing around until the global origin was centered, and the selected face was off screen. Most of the time I had all components except for the one I was sketching on not visible, and the component I was sketching on was activated. So most of the time I was presented with a view that had zero components actually on screen. This is the software giving no consideration to the intension of the user. 

 

Same with the view rotation. I have a model that is an enclosure for some electronics that will be wall mounted. For better or worse I started that model with the front (ZX) plane as the wall. This is a rectangular thin enclosure. I want to make a sketch on the left side, and because the projection of the enclosure is a long rectangle I have purposely oriented the view so that the Z axis is horizontal, Y is vertical, and X is in/out of the screen. This fits the model on the screen best since my screen is also a rectangle that is wider than it is tall. So I start a sketch and click the left/right (ZY) plane, and the view rotates to point Z upwards, which is an orientation that puts more of the part off of the screen and wastes more screen space. This shows the software following an overly simplified rule rather than giving consideration to the intension of the user. 

What would be wonderful is a setting that allows a user to select behavior of this feature. Either allow it to always force the X axis to be horizontal, or snap to being the closest orientation to the current 3d view.

The issue with pushing the selected face off screen just simply shouldn't happen. If you're forcing sketch origin to the center then a check should be going on to make sure the selected face is actually on screen and zoom accordingly. 

Message 9 of 13

chris.eganY2EK3
Advocate
Advocate

Here's a wonderful example. I want to sketch on the top of this yellow part. I have the view oriented already looking at this face. I am zoomed in because it's a small part relative to the larger assembly. I select the top face on the yellow part as my sketch plane, and I'm presented with the view in the second screen shot. The part I selected just isn't on the screen at all and I have to pan around to get back to the view I care about. 

When I see behavior like this I have to strongly wonder if the people developing this software ever actually use it, because behavior like this just shouldn't happen. 

 

Sketch Orientation 1.PNG

sketch orientation 2.PNG

  

Message 10 of 13

jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

"I have to strongly wonder if the people developing this software ever actually use it"

 

Yes, every single day, even on weekends.  Also an unfair comment, IMO, but, again, you are welcome to your opinions.  I wish this forum were a little less like Twitter, but I guess that is where we are today.  The part of this discussion that I find the most disturbing is the assumption here of either bad faith, incompetence, or somehow a true antagonism to our customers on the part of the Fusion team.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I'm sorry that you appear to believe otherwise.

 

I understand your request here, and I do not disagree that there are many ways that "look at" could be improved for sketch.  What "look at" does, for a sketch is:  orient the camera to be looking down the positive Z axis of the sketch plane, oriented so that the sketch X axis is horizontal.  The view is zoomed to include the entire sketch, with some built in defaults for a sketch with only one point in it.  There are a few more rules, but that is the gist.  Auto look at just automates look at when entering a sketch.  I don't believe that there is different logic for "look at" and "auto look at".  Based on the behavior that you describe, I'm going to guess that you have "auto project geometry on active sketch plane" disabled.  

Screenshot 2024-05-05 at 8.14.48 AM.png

 

If that were enabled, then the edges from the face you selected would be included in the sketch, therefore that face would be in the view.  Of course, there might be bugs here, and if you do have this option enabled, and the face is still not in the view, I would describe that as a bug.

 

As to why the view is zoomed out:  Above, I said that look at includes the entire sketch.  A sketch always includes a grounded point at the sketch origin.  That is considered part of the "entire sketch".  Early on in Fusion's development, we used to use a point from the selected face as the origin point.  In those days, with the above option on, I believe the behavior would have been exactly as you describe you want.  However, customers complained that choosing a face vertex as a sketch origin was not stable under edit.  So, in a "sketch stability" project, the logic was changed so that the origin of the component that owns the sketch is projected onto the sketch plane, and used as the origin, which is much more stable (and has fixed most of the problems that resulted from a changing sketch origin under edit).  So, for sketches which are far away from the projected component origin, look at zooms out to include that point as well.  Should it?  Arguable, I guess, but, if you accept the general definition of "look at" (for any object, not just a sketch) to include the entire extent of the object, it certainly should include the origin point.  And, I suspect, if we changed the logic so that the origin point was not included, it would generate an entirely different round of outrage and assumptions of bad faith, from a different group of people.

 

I don't disagree that the behaviors you describe here can be undesirable.  There is room for improvement.  It is probably not high priority at the moment, but maybe it will become a priority at some point.


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
Message 11 of 13

chris.eganY2EK3
Advocate
Advocate

I did not have the "auto project geometry on active sketch plane" option enabled. However enabling it does not change any behavior. In the example I shared it still kicks the selected face off screen. So I retain the believe that the logic being used is broken. I leave that project option off because I usually do not want all edges included, I want specific edges at most, and I appreciate that the option to turn it off exists. 

What's even more irritating is that fusion is clearly aware of the way the user had the model oriented, because if you don't re-orient a sketch after it rotates to make X horizontal, clicking end sketch rotates you BACK to the view you had. It feels like the pieces should all be there to allow user preferences on how this option works. 

 


My comment about wondering if developers use the software stems from years of seeing just annoying UI issues in the software that I cannot image how they get through testing. Eventually it starts to feel like either developers aren't using the tools, or they are using them in a very different way, even if that's an unfair assumption and statement. Some examples
1. this issue described in this thread. 


2. For reasons I have not yet been able to categorize, when you have a timeline that is longer than your screen can display, if you drag the history marker back in the timeline, then edit a sketch/feature near the marker, often times when you finish working on that sketch/feature the timeline auto scrolls back to the end or beginning instead of leaving the marker on screen, requiring that you scroll back each time. To be clear I mean scrolling the timeline view, not scrolling the actual marker. The view is changing itself so that you no longer see where the marker is. It doesn't happen every time, and I've been unable to find the combination of things that recreates it reliably, but it's frequent enough to be productivity breaking. 


3. Rotation centers for the model seem to not consider what is actually visible. If I have a large model, and I have a component isolated so it's the only visible component on screen, but that component is located significantly far enough away from global origin that the origin is off screen when zoomed to the component, the rotation center for the model still defaults to global origin which results in some wild rotations. This may be a spacemouse specific issue, it's been ages since I used middle click rotation. But it requires a right click, "reset orbit center" to get it to snap to a point on the visible component. And that must be done every time you exit a sketch because it resets to origin each time. This is annoying enough that I have a macro programmed to end a sketch, then right click and select that option so rotation always acts predictably. 


4. The save popup (and other pop up menus) seem decoupled from any activity in the Data panel. If I go through the effort of creating a new folder inside a project to save a new design into, the save popup defaults into the location it had last used, requiring that the user navigate to that new folder again. This has caused me to "lose" designs in the data panel countless times because it just seems natural that there should be context associated with creating a new project/folder and then saving a new design. I am much better at catching it now, but it still seems like odd behavior. 

 

5. I've had a bug for years now where the fusion sketch environment will randomly register extra clicks resulting in tiny extra line segments that often require extensive hunting to find. Meaning I will click once to start a line, click again to end it somewhere, and wind up with 2 lines and 3 points, one of which is extremely close to the first point. If I ever have a sketch that isn't registering as fully defined when it should be, I always have to go hunting for that extra unintended line segment. I have swapped out keyboards, mice, and even computers, and I've tried unplugging every single other USB device connected to the computer. I see the bug on multiple computers and my co-workers see it too. I even went so far as to make fusion the first piece of software I installed on a new laptop, using only the integrated track pad, and saw it happen on that machine. But the only response I've gotten when asking about it is blaming my hardware. 

 

6. The construction toggle randomly locks in sketches and won't respond to the keyboard "x" shortcut, requiring that you click the toolbar button to "wake" it up again. This can be after a successful toggle from the keyboard. So I'll hit X to go to construction, then change my mind, hit X again and it won't toggle off. 


7. Fusion electronics has been years of updates full of bugs that truly feel like the user base being treated as the actual beta testers for each release. From a bug that was causing actual files to be deleted that a co-worker and I found, diagnosed, and submitted several years ago, to toolbars that auto size themselves to take up so much of the screen that the available workspace is unusable, constant crashes, overall buggy behavior, if it wouldn't be an enormous time hit to migrate all our files to a different e-cad software package we'd have done it already, and probably will once we get a minute to breathe in the schedule. 

There are more, but the cumulation of little annoyance bugs like this adds up to the end user feeling like updates just simply aren't being tested as much as they could be. Is it unfair to imply that no one on the team tests the software? Yes. I was frustrated, even if that isn't a good excuse. Is it unfair and counter-productive to complain in a wall of text on the forums? also probably. I do my best to only post when I think there is a real issue with something, I'm sure there is a lot of noise here from other users. So I'm sorry for adding to it, but I do feel the behavior described in the start of this thread is an actual issue that should be addressed. 

Message 12 of 13

funbobby2001
Explorer
Explorer

I'd like to add my name to the list of people who are absolutely dumbfounded and infuriated by this sketch editing behavior in Fusion 360. Just open the sketch in the last orientation and zoom level I saved it in. And give me the option to set the "look at" orientation and zoom for each sketch.  

 

@funbobby2001 - this post has been edited due to Community Rules & Etiquette violation

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Message 13 of 13

crueby1
Advocate
Advocate

Okay, I need to jump in with my 2 cents worth on this one, this behavior of the auto look at sketch has bugged me for years as well. I am not trying to insult the development team, but here is a short video with a very simple example of what I, and apparently lots of others, am seeing when I have the auto look at sketch (and the auto project setting as well - that one does not seem to have any impact on the issue) turned on.

 

Sometimes it DOES do the right thing and shows the entire sketch, but I think it only does that in certain cases, where the sketch is already visible on the screen. In the attached video, I create the sketch with a simple line from the origin, to a box higher up on the screen. Then, I do a couple of examples of editing the sketch - in the first ones it does the right thing, but in the later ones wher the view is off to the side, it sets the axis to the proper place but does NOT bring the sketch contents into view, it snaps back down to the origin axis instead. This happens all the time to me, and I have to waste a lot of time panning the view back up to where the sketch contents are. I do a lot of parts for machines at full size, many feet across, not just small few-inch-across parts, so this gets old very fast.

 

My setup: a Windows 10 desktop, Nvidia graphics card, the paid version of Fusion. If there are any other details you need, or some other setting I should make to correct this, please let me know and I'll get that info to you. This example in the video is a very straightforward example of what it is doing, and it is not correct how it is behaving, as near as I can understand.

 

Please help!

Chris

 

EDIT: Just noticed on my video that the browser window down the left side and the sketch menu window on the right did not show, the video capture just got the main window. When the mouse goes over to the upper left of the main window, it is clicking on the sketch name in the browser list. When over at the middle-right edge of the window, it is to click on the end sketch button. Not having the autodesk-supplied video capture anymore is a pain, wish you guys would bundle in a good one again!

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