Request: Ability to set Setup WCS to position on Machine Model

[reinigrauer]

I have an older 5 axis Haas and the way my workflow works is my WCS is always set to the same spot on the machine and my whole workholding/fixture/zero point system must be modeled for each setup to work.  What follows is a very complicated set of fixture templates that I have to maintain to keep everything lined up from job to job, but it works.  But currently the fixture/zero point configuration is specific to one machine because the intersection of the A and C axis of rotation must be part of the model for the 5 axis functionality to work and for me to select it as the WCS origin for the setup.  

One possibly small feature I would love to see is a way to select a point on the machine model for the WCS.  In my case, for instance, I would want to pick the center of rotation intersection of the A axis trunnion and C axis on my machine model every time I pick that machine in the setup configuration. Currently when you select the WCS, the machine disappears from view and no parts of the machine are selectable for the WCS, even after I set all the attach points for the part and machine.  So what that leaves is a necessity that the model has information about the position of rotation of the machine, which isn't necessarily portable between machines.  I may have another machine with a slightly different trunnion with a slightly different offset to the WCS position and I'd have to adjust the model's WCS for it to operate correctly on this machine.  Many machines like mine don't have probing or dynamic work offsets to compensate for whatever machine differences there are either.

This may also help people who have things like fixture plates on machines, where the main WCS on the machine may be a single hole or corner of the fixture plate.  With a machine defined WCS, you can probe whatever position on the fixture plate you want, it doesn't have to be the same spot on every machine with a fixture plate.  And then you just have to model your part in a vise and then use the table attach point on a spot on the fixture plate and then use the fixed WCS point on the machine to be the WCS for the setup.  It would even be cool to define a WCS point and offset number in the machine configuration so that it's not possible to get anything mixed up in the configuration of the setup.  With the current way it works, you may have multiple machines with different sizes or configuration of fixture plates, and having the fixture plate being part of the model itself locks the part to that particular machine (and tends to slow everything down).

In envision it working by making the machine visible and points selectable in the "Select coordinate system" dropdown if you've picked a machine with an actual model, and if you pick a machine position it requires you to set the part position to continue.  And if you pick a machine wcs, it autofills the wcs offset number.  

Coming from job shop work, having stuff like this would greatly simplify the setup workflow since I'm doing potentially several setups a day.

Edit: just realized this should have been in the ideas forum but it isn't.  Apparently you can't delete your own posts either.

Edit 2: Attached some screenshots - 
Saved Point - my machine model which has my zero point fixture modeled into it, and a G54 joint origin set where the actual rotation intersection for the A and C axis exists on the machine.
Part Position - The part model (with the vise and other fixturing) can be attached to the machine model in the setup for machine simulation, so now these two models are joined and the axis intersection of the machine model (my G54) should be accessible to the setup.  The way I do it now, the part model itself uses a zero point component for this machine which contains this machine's specific G54 point. I wish the zero point component was in the machine model instead since it never leaves the machine.
WCS Origin - Why not make it possible to select that machine model's G54 point at this point?

[dwilliamsFM6K4]

You can accomplish this by merely having a Setup Template, where everything above the platter is modeled, and then making the MODEL ORIGIN of that Setup Template, the WCS for your Setup. Then the bottom of that fixture is referenced to the Machine Simulation model as the attach point etc, works great in my repeated setups

I do this, but not at A / C Intersection, but no reason you couldn't model a sketch at those intersection(s) on an offset plane above your platter. I add my part / workholding into this setup anytime I need to make a part, and then just select the machine get everything I need quick and easy

You could totally go all out, and just make the Origin for your Machine Simulation model the Intersection of A / C, I just typically only Machine Simulate things I expect could hit

[reinigrauer]

That still makes the WCS tied directly to the modeled geometry.  So the specifics of the machine's programmed work coordinates are in the model, and therefore not portable.  If you put the fixture in your picture on a fixture table, lets say indexing on a grid of dowel pins, if you were to move that fixture from position A-1 on the grid to D-7, you would either have to go into the machine and indicate the D-7 dowel pin as a new work coordinate, or you would need to go into the model (which would necessarily have to have the fixture table modeled with it) and move the fixture to D-7 but keep the WCS at A-1 the same, or you would need to have every grid position indicated as a WCS in the machine and pick that WCS number in the setup.  Either solution is less elegant than just moving the "table attach point" to D-7 in the setup and being done. 

Also the way I do it now is basically what you're saying about the sketch plane and point.  The issue with this is for my trunnion, this position is exactly .1275" above the bottom of the zero point.  If I was to, say, have another machine where this position is .1257" above the zero point fixture, I would have to remember what machine I was running the parts on, and go into the part model and change that before I run it on the other machine.  Now what if I have a whole line of machines, each with different offsets on their zero points?  Posting jobs to these machines would probably turn into a nightmare.  The WCS would be better stuck to the machine specific model rather than the part model at that point, right? 

Basically all I'm asking for is to let the user choose geometry from the machine model rather than just the part model for the WCS.  Once everything is stuck together in the setup, that should be all the information the cam system needs to generate toolpaths.  It's probably not a difficult thing to implement.  

[rengfx]

Yes.. you're going to need to keep track of your particular setup conditions relative to the machine you want to utilize, if you desire to use unique individual 'machine to machine' different criteria like  COR that can vary..

This is why most users default to making a WCS their main Setup WCS which happens to be COR then do something like Part Alignment to fine tune the part position. Then you don't need to worry about opening the correct machine model for the particular serialized machine you're working on, you just know G54 on your Hurco / HAAS / DMG / Brother is your main COR WCS and reference everything from it. If you model everything above the table attach point on a CNC I could use the same CAM Fusion file to simulate on ANY of the afore mentioned machine models, just by selecting the machine from the Setup and get a quick simulation of the entire Setup for checking orientations and approaches as well as clearance

Once position is established its tracked either with something like DWO (dynamic work offset) or a custom Macro

If you want to use Machine position etc to drive WCS, utilize your actual Machine Model as your CAM environment, asking for a special workflow where essentially the last step needs then drive the previous steps (selecting a model, its orient, its WCS relative, its stock, its fixture) doesn't seem feasible or relevant 

[reinigrauer]

Tweaking the part alignment is close to what would be needed, but it's not a great solution for the fixture plate example. And you still have to hand key in the offset from what, a notebook you keep around with all this info?

The machine is already modeled, the part is already modeled, they are already stuck together with the table attach point, so all of the information is already there to drive the machine simulation.  The only thing missing is to be able to select a point on the machine model for the WCS.  This position can be fed back into the CAM engine as a WCS just the same as any other point in space.

My argument is that it would be an easy feature to streamline a lot of setup and machine specific WCS wrangling for job shops that have to do many setups a day, and your argument seems to be that there are hacky workarounds and therefore it shouldn't be implemented?

[rengfx]

I have a 12x24" Fixture plate on my 5 axis with swiss cheesed hole patterns

When needed, I drop 2 pins into planar holes, position my part up against those 2, then against another pin creating the constraints I need to locate the part. I model those in Fusion CAD, drop my part into the assembly, and align my part to those locators (could be literally anywhere on my fixture plate) ratchet strap the part down (typically 3D printed aluminum automotive structures / powertrain components with EXTREMELY thin walls) and do Part Alignment 

I haven't changed my WCS in.. months. Fusion CAM updates the posted code necessary to orient my part so the features I want cut are properly cut relative to the part position WCS. What is there to fat finger with offsets?

It takes about 5 minutes to completely model this, and setup the real work example on the CNC. I program for several different 5 axis CNC machines, and have never needed to make any part of my machine simulation model the driving WCS. This isn't a hacky workaround, its the proper process. I can setup nearly any part, without hard edges or traditional "datums" without ever adjusting G54 by running a (typically) less than 5 min Part Alignment

The workflow works properly, using a linked model (inserted machine simulation) that needs a positioning step (selecting table attach point) logically cannot drive your WCS, just drop your fixture plate into your main CAM programming template for whatever machine you're working on select ANY dowel hole as your WCS, and update your setup and regen toolpaths merely by placing your fixture plate at the bottom of your CAM, then selecting your machine simulation

OR

Just use the whole machine model as your CAM environment

(note all pictures are of my 3 axis setup not my 5 axis)

[reinigrauer]

Using the whole machine model in the CAM environment is redundant and exactly the thing I'm trying to avoid.  First of all, as soon as I add a fixture plate and machine model to the CAM model, my computer starts chugging.  I'm sure yours would probably do the same.  Second, as soon as you do that, you are rigidly locking the machine model to the part model, which is also what I'm trying to avoid.  If I've got two machines that I'm trying to run this part on, and each of those machines has a slightly different WCS for the axis intersection, I've now got to import every machine the part is going to run on into the part model to get the information about the WCS.  It's extra steps that shouldn't have to be done if the machine model already has the fixture plate or zero points modeled and you use the table attach position in the setup.  At that point, the full model is complete, you shouldn't need anything else.

Just give us the option to choose geometry on the machine model for the WCS origin.  That's it.  Should be really easy to implement.  Nobody's workflow has to change for this, but for many I think it would simplify the setup process a huge amount.

I feel like everyone here is just showing off their counterintuitive workarounds to a problem that has a simple solution.  For me, the machine model having the information about the WCS home is the best possible way to ensure the model stays portable from machine to machine.  Just because that's how you're used to doing it and that's the way it has been done, doesn't mean it's the best way to do it.  That's the whole point of a product improvement request.

[rengfx]

Machine model = everything you don't bolt to the table

CAM Setup = everything you do bolt to the table

WCS = relationship between those things

Machine Simulation = Tool for checking how those things interact for feasibility, it is NOT gcode simulation does not have linking moves etc so it's really just fancy graphics

If you're using Machine Simulation to drive your WCS etc that's a completely backwards workflow that accomplishes what? Simulation is to check for collision / clearance. It's a NON critical part of the workflow compared to setting an accurate repeatable WCS which if you don't have, you crash or cut air

This is why DWO etc exist, because making a "perfect" setup is actually not that practical. It's counterintuitive to make workflows the rely on machine specific parameters, if you're going to be programming for multiple machines, if you have them. 

The 'machine model' containing the WCS information requires it to be present in the calculations / simulations and will only slow your computer down even more. Determining you NEED the full machine model etc linked to it will only hamper this, why you insist on needing it when you can merely model only your fixture plate and accomplish all the same things. I don't know what about needing the coolant nozzles, or casting, or way covers visualized at the time of your CAM Setup has to do with your WCS so I cannot comment further

Good luck with your request

[reinigrauer]

Why do you keep saying the workflow is backwards??  You do realize that the tabs in the setup screen are for organization, it's not a workflow.  You can pick anything in the tabs out of "order" and it still functions correctly.  They could have programmed it with the WCS origin selection on the last tab with the WCS number and you would have never known the difference.    It's not a workflow.  

Also, you are wrong about what a WCS actually is.  The WCS is just an offset that drives the final actual coordinates in the toolpath.  The cam program doesn't care where that WCS is in space, it will generate coordinates in the toolpath relative to that point.  

When actually setting up the machine, when you probe a WCS, that point may be a corner of the vise, a corner of the stock, it may be a feature on a part, or it may be literally something that is part of the machine itself, like a table slot or a zero point fixture built into the trunnion like on the trt210.  In my case, the WCS is literally part of the machine and can't be adjusted unless I want bad parts.  And I don't have DWO so that entire point is invalid here.  All I'm saying is that the machine is already modeled up, the part model is already attached to it, let me pick the machines geometry as the WCS.  After all, I already proved the machine as the basis of the WCS, it only makes sense for that to be an option for what drives the WCS in fusion.  The machine simulation isn't even part of this equation.  You pick the machine in the setup screen, you can place the part model on that machine model, that's all you need to reference the WCS on the machine model back to the part model and the CAM toolpath generation.  It's just a point in space after all.  You shouldn't need a bunch of new sketches and modeling in the part model to reference a point in space that already exists in the machine model the part model is attached to.

I'm not telling you that you need to change your workflow.  What I'm saying is allowing the user to choose machine geometry without having to import the machine model to the part model would improve my workflow as well as others.

[guilherme.awv]

I can't remember any other software that provides that and I would never try shortcuts to run multiaxis programs.

The company I used to work had a program for each machine, it is extra work to update that if new revision comes but we have never crashed machines 🙂

What if you create a template for your fixtures and have all WCS points on planes so you can just pick whatever you want for any specific machine?

[reinigrauer]

That is how I have it now, but it's definitely not optimal. 

This isn't a shortcut and it would still generate toolpath for different machines.  When you create a setup, you are already selecting a machine (let's call it machine 1) as the machine for the setup.  It loads the machine model, the post processor, and all the other machine specific settings for the toolpath.  Now let's say I want to run the same setup on machine 2, which has a different WCS for the zero point.  The current way, I have to go into the part model, adjust the WCS origin for the part based on some value I've written down, or replace the zero point plate on the model with the one I modeled from machine 2 with the correct WCS origin point, do all my joints to get everything lined back up, select the new machine in the setup, and the WCS origin, and repost it.  

With my suggestion, you would pick machine 2 in the setup, grab the WCS origin off the machine model, and then repost. It's almost impossible to mess up.

Is it just me or does nobody else seem to visualize the utility here?  Imo the worst part about fusion 360 right now are all the hacky workarounds to do fairly basic things.  If all you get from having a machine model at all is the machine simulation feature, then it's a short sighted feature that isn't fully leveraging the power of the machine model.

[guilherme.awv]

Maybe you should add some pictures to help us understand.

if workpiece, fixture and subplates are all the same, you should just pick a new point in space for the new WCS on the new machine, you can have as many points as you wish in your template file.

here you say you need to update models, replace plates...

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@reinigrauer  escreveu:

That is how I have it now, but it's definitely not optimal. 

This isn't a shortcut and it would still generate toolpath for different machines.  When you create a setup, you are already selecting a machine (let's call it machine 1) as the machine for the setup.  It loads the machine model, the post processor, and all the other machine specific settings for the toolpath.  Now let's say I want to run the same setup on machine 2, which has a different WCS for the zero point.  The current way, I have to go into the part model, adjust the WCS origin for the part based on some value I've written down, or replace the zero point plate on the model with the one I modeled from machine 2 with the correct WCS origin point, do all my joints to get everything lined back up, select the new machine in the setup, and the WCS origin, and repost it.  

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 How would you avoid that by just picking a point on machine model simulation? If fixture components are not the same, it is not possible to do that

[reinigrauer]

Here, I recorded a screencast that might make it easier to understand what I'd like to see.

EDIT: well, apparently it won't let me attach the screencast to the original post.  Here it is: https://autode.sk/3RBLc93

[rengfx]

That was helpful, and I do understand what you're asking for, would be handy feature if able to be implemented 

In any case, it's still relying on a linked model to position WCS, you CAN accomplish the exact same thing, by making an offset plane sketch with single point to locate your Zero Point plate the Model Origin of you CAM Setup or a sketch point offset from the attach point, and in needed situations use any fixture hole by defining a Sketch or Feature Point (Center Center Bottom of Vise Bore) as your WCS

 

I know this could be perceived again, as a workaround, but it will accomplish the design intent from the screen cast of being able to on the fly, have your COR as WCS or a Fixed Position (indicated bore on fixture plate, you then specify also as attachment point) that's also relative to your Machine Configuration for simulation / code output

Hope this could help in the interim of any software change

[reinigrauer]

I know I can do that.  But I try to avoid any manual entry for stuff like that if I can.  I'd have to keep track of the exact dimension for that WCS point for every machine and make sure I don't enter it wrong.  The way I do it now is keep track of it in the zero point plate model and import that into my part model and joint it to my vise, but that is still making information that is redundant because it's already in the machine model.

[guilherme.awv]

Any reason you prefer having zero plate or any fixture plate in the machine model?

I believe this is not good for the workflow, in my humble opinion the machine model should consist of machine elements and rotary axis, not workholdings.

Here I have a template file with different vises configurations and I pick the best one for that job, then using fixture attachment points it will be positioned on the machine model. I have joint origins points on different spots of my jaw to pick G54, G55.. helpful for 1st op.