Machine Builder V2 documentation, editing, rotary kinematics

[andrewVA8RQ]

Hello from Andrew at Focus.

Until the October update, we were successfully using Machine Builder for Simulate With Machine functionality on our 4-axis horizontal milling machine. After the October update, key functionality for Simulate Machine have been broken for us. To try to resolve the problem, we enabled Machine Builder V2 but we are having some problems with the user interface and backend functionality and haven't been able to resolve the issue. We are looking to get more information and documentation related to Machine Builder V2.

We watched the product release video and read all of the documentation available, but there isn't much available in the way of documentation for Machine Builder V2. There don't seem to be any existing forum posts related to the Machine Builder V2 functionality. We are putting all of our questions in this post. Please see the following issues:

1. Rotary kinematics:
1A. After the October update, the rotary axis simulation doesn't appear to rotate the rotary axis relative to the tool in the Manufacture - Simulate with Machine dialog. The X/Y/Z axes still simulate OK. Simulate itself still works with the rotary axis rotating properly relative to the tool. The rotary axes appear to still be set up correctly inside Machine Builder. This is the main issue raised.

2. Convert Machine prompt when opening a pre-existing machine in Machine Builder:
2A. Is it possible to revert machines from the new format to the legacy format, once they have been converted?
2B. What are the changes that are being made when converting a Machine Configuration?
2C. Is a new copy of the Machine Configuration created, with the legacy version preserved, or is the legacy version inaccessible after converting it to a new format?

3. File structure, storage and sharing:
3A. What are the files associated with the Machine Builder V2, vs. the original Machine Builder (specifically asking about .machine files and .f3d files)
3B. Where are these files stored locally and on the cloud?
3C. How can the files be accessed within Fusion 360?
3D. What is the intended purpose of the Home -> Libraries -> Assets -> CAMMachines folder? Are we supposed to open and edit the Machines from this folder?
3E. What are .machine files? Do these contain all of the Machine Configuration parameters?
3F. What does the "Can't edit machine - A newer version of this machine has been found. To edit this machine, you need to update to the latest version." prompt mean?
3G. How does the Machine versioning system work?
3H. What does the "Machine is out of date" prompt mean?
3I. What does the Update Machine command do?
3J. How can a Machine Configuration be copied?
3K. How can a Machine Configuration be edited in Machine builder? The Machine Configuration editor only seems to allow editing the parameters and kinematics.
3L. How can a CAM file be edited to refer to a different Machine Configuration?
3M. How are Machine Configurations related to Fusion designs containing the machine?
3N. How can you edit an existing Machine Configuration to use a different Fusion 360 design for the machine?

3O. How can Machine Configurations be configured to push configuration and post-processor updates to multiple users? Do we need to do this process manually?

3P. What is the process for making changes to an existing Machine Configuration?

4. Select Machines dialog - how does this function when you already have a Machine open in Machine Builder?

5. Nomenclature: What is the difference between a Machine and a Machine Configuration?

We were able to find and refer to the following resources related to Machine Builder V2, but they didn't help with the above questions:

October Product Update - Improved Machine Builder V2 - https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/blog/october-2022-major-product-update-whats-new/#Simul...

Autodesk Fusion 360 | Fusion 360 Machine V2: Laying the groundwork for more complex machines - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcKJYgfUVFA
(High-level overview)

AutoDesk - Product Documentation - Machine configuration tips - https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=MFG-REF-UNSUIT-MACHINE-CONFIG
(Appears to reference Machine Builder V2)

AutoDesk - Product Documentation - Machine Configuration reference - https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=MFG-REF-MACHINE-CONFIGURATION-CMD
(The direct link from the October product update appears to still reference Machine Builder V1)

Resources we were able to find, that we reviewed and used to successfully Simulate with Machine using Machine Builder V1:

AutoDesk - Product Documentation - Machine Builder reference - https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=MFG-REF-MACHINE-BUILDER
(This refers to the old Machine Builder, and hasn't been updated with Machine Builder V2)

Various tutorial videos related to Machine Builder V1 that were helpful:
Fusion 360 Machine Simulation - Machine Builder - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2kyR4y7iNg
Fusion 360 Machine Simulation - Get the basics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFPHMw78V94
Using Machine Builder in Autodesk Fusion 360 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QhprXy0bdc&t=101s

Edit 1: Added our screencast illustrating a few of the above questions:

Rotary axis simulation when using Simulate with Machine .

Link: https://screencast.autodesk.com/Embed/Timeline/040c268a-43e8-4d31-a027-faa45721c8ad

00:00 - 04:00 Machine builder setup

02:00 - 04:00 Geometry selection problem showing up in the rotary axis kinematic preview.

04:00 - 06:45 CAM setup

06:46 - 08:28 Simulate feature - tool orientation working correctly

08:29 - 12:54 Simulate with Machine feature - tool orientation not working correctly

[a.laasW8M6T]

These are all excellent questions, which I would like answers to as well. I think you have worded it well.

The confusing thing for me is I have a machine, but the latest version isn't the one that's in the machine library, its somewhere and Fusion seems to know about it.

I think the issue stems from being able to edit the machine and machine config in multiple locations.

You can edit the machine config in the machine Library, In a CAM setup and in the machine builder environment.

In theory this would all work seamlessly but in reality it seems fusion gets stuck in an endless loop of not knowing which config to use. its an extremely confusing and IMO broken workflow.

To answer your question about the machine no longer simulating properly anymore it may be that the component references in machine builder have been lost. I would check that everything is still associated correctly:

As far as i know machine V2 just updates the config to the newer version:

I don't think you can roll back but I don't believe this will hurt anything. (other than maybe the machining time goes out of whack)

[andrewVA8RQ]

Thanks for the feedback. I edited the forum post to add our screencast illustrating a few of the above questions.

Rotary axis simulation when using Simulate with Machine:

https://screencast.autodesk.com/Embed/Timeline/040c268a-43e8-4d31-a027-faa45721c8ad

00:00 - 04:00 Machine builder setup

02:00 - 04:00 Geometry selection problem showing up in the rotary axis kinematic preview.

04:00 - 06:45 CAM setup

06:46 - 08:28 Simulate feature - tool orientation working correctly

08:29 - 12:54 Simulate with Machine feature - tool orientation not working correctly

[andrewVA8RQ]

Some additional information: We raised a case with AutoDesk Technical Support linking to this forum post. Here is the full correspondence:

-------------------------------------------------
Hi Andrew,

Thank you for contacting Autodesk Technical Support.

My name is Nihal Goundi . This support request has been escalated to me for further review and I’ll be assisting you with this.

From the case description, I understand that you are having “an issue with the machine builder ”.

Please refer to the article link: Where to find learning resources and tutorials for the Machine Builder feature in Fusion 360, Also refer to the related content in the article where you can find videos and product documentation that are useful in Machine builder.

Thank you again for contacting Autodesk and have a nice day!

Best regards,
Nihal Goundi
Global Product support
---------------------------------------------------
Hi Ninal,

Thank you for your response. I have reviewed the support resources that you provided, and they do not resolve my issue and questions. Could you please provide a more comprehensive response?

Regards,

Andrew
---------------------------------------------------
Hi Andrew,

Thank you for the reply,

1. Regarding the issue with rotary kinematics, please share the file so that we can take a look.

2. Is it possible to revert machines from the new format to the legacy format?
We can revert back the post processor to legacy but once the machine is updated it will not revert back, and there is no copy of it is saved . you can stop the automatic updates in the preferences > preview features > Uncheck the automatic updates of machines and post-processor.

3. File structure, storage and sharing:
Files associated with machine builder, These are internal changes made by the development team and are pushed to Fusion update,
The assets folder displays the cloud data present in your account, like the machines and tools etc.
"Can't edit machine - A newer version of this machine has been found. To edit this machine, you need to update to the latest version" this means the machine save in your cloud data is in legacy format and a new version of machine is ready in Fusion cloud data and you need to update it to edit the machine .
Machine is out of date" prompt mean the machine which is used in setup or simulation is old and already an updated parameters machine is in the library.
And to copy the machine configuration when you are editing the config you can save the config and then you can load the same config from the same window.

Let us know if you want to learn more about the machine builder and configuration, you can refer the link https://www.autodesk.com/partners/locate-a-reseller where you can find Autodesk authorized partners and they will provide you training on this.

Best regards,
Nihal Goundi
Global Product support

[andrewVA8RQ]

Additional correspondence with Nihal Goundi - Global Product support:

Hi Nihal,

Thanks for your response. Could you please respond to my full questions from the original forum post inline? You skipped a few questions. Original questions in black. Your answers in blue. My responses in red.

1. Rotary kinematics:
1A. After the October update, the rotary axis simulation doesn't appear to rotate the rotary axis relative to the tool in the Manufacture - Simulate with Machine dialog. The X/Y/Z axes still simulate OK. Simulate itself still works with the rotary axis rotating properly relative to the tool. The rotary axes appear to still be set up correctly inside Machine Builder. This is the main issue raised.

1. Regarding the issue with rotary kinematics, please share the file so that we can take a look.

Could you please send a list of the files you need me to send in order to evaluate the rotary kinematics issue?

2. Convert Machine prompt when opening a pre-existing machine in Machine Builder:
2A. Is it possible to revert machines from the new format to the legacy format, once they have been converted?
 We can revert back the post processor to legacy but once the machine is updated it will not revert back, and there is no copy of it is saved . you can stop the automatic updates in the preferences > preview features > Uncheck the automatic updates of machines and post-processor.

2B. What are the changes that are being made when converting a Machine Configuration?

3. File structure, storage and sharing:
3A. What are the files associated with the Machine Builder V2, vs. the original Machine Builder (specifically asking about .machine files and .f3d files)

Files associated with machine builder, These are internal changes made by the development team and are pushed to Fusion update,

3B. Where are these files stored locally and on the cloud?
3C. How can the files be accessed within Fusion 360?
3D. What is the intended purpose of the Home -> Libraries -> Assets -> CAMMachines folder? Are we supposed to open and edit the Machines from this folder?

The assets folder displays the cloud data present in your account, like the machines and tools etc.

3E. What are .machine files? Do these contain all of the Machine Configuration parameters?
3F. What does the "Can't edit machine - A newer version of this machine has been found. To edit this machine, you need to update to the latest version." prompt mean?

this means the machine save in your cloud data is in legacy format and a new version of machine is ready in Fusion cloud data and you need to update it to edit the machine

I built the machines that I am using myself using base models from the manufacturer. I'm not using a standard machine, my machine isn't available in the Fusion Cloud library.

3G. How does the Machine versioning system work?
3H. What does the "Machine is out of date" prompt mean?

Machine is out of date" prompt mean the machine which is used in setup or simulation is old and already an updated parameters machine is in the library.

I'm not using a standard machine, my machine isn't available in the Fusion Cloud library.

3I. What does the Update Machine command do?
3J. How can a Machine Configuration be copied?

And to copy the machine configuration when you are editing the config you can save the config and then you can load the same config from the same window.

Could you please provide more detailed instructions with screenshots?

3K. How can a Machine Configuration be edited in Machine builder? The Machine Configuration editor only seems to allow editing the parameters and kinematics.
3L. How can a CAM file be edited to refer to a different Machine Configuration?
3M. How are Machine Configurations related to Fusion designs containing the machine?
3N. How can you edit an existing Machine Configuration to use a different Fusion 360 design for the machine?

3O. How can Machine Configurations be configured to push configuration and post-processor updates to multiple users? Do we need to do this process manually?

3P. What is the process for making changes to an existing Machine Configuration?

Let us know if you want to learn more about the machine builder and configuration, you can refer the link https://www.autodesk.com/partners/locate-a-reseller where you can find Autodesk authorized partners and they will provide you training on this.

What resources do your authorized partners and resellers have access to, that I don't?

Regards,

Andrew