Inlays

Inlays

johnmartin724
Enthusiast Enthusiast
1,566 Views
15 Replies
Message 1 of 16

Inlays

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi Guys,

              I had figured that creating an inlay would be as simple as making a square, extruding it a bit and then creating two operations on it. A contour to cut one out and an pocket. I've tried everything that I can think of. I've cut on both sides of the line and of course i've read about and watched youtube on the v-carve. I'm still trying to learn fusion so i'm not really interested in learning another software.

 

I'm thinking this is gonna come down two squares with a size difference based on the diameter or radius of the end mill.

 

How would one approach a project as described above?

 

If I can get a square peg to fit a square hole the next project will be a mahogany hallow heart in a small oak music box.

 

Thanks,

John

0 Likes
Accepted solutions (1)
1,567 Views
15 Replies
Replies (15)
Message 2 of 16

engineguy
Mentor
Mentor

@johnmartin724 

 

Two ways that come to mind are one, Scale the external Contour down/or the Pocket up a fraction so it is an easier fit 🙂

To do it with tool sizes you could alter the tool diameter offset in you control to either take more/less material off, that is the one I personally would prefer to use 🙂

0 Likes
Message 3 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Howdy Engineguy,
I tried scaling a bit with the hearts yesterday with very little even close to success. I have started a new project this morning. Two squares, two extrudes, two bodies, two setups and working on two processes. I can not find a 'tool diameter offset'. Where is this option you're referring to? I'm thinking now that you're talking about editing the tool itself.

Thanks again,
John
0 Likes
Message 4 of 16

engineguy
Mentor
Mentor

@johnmartin724 

 

The tool diameter offset will be in your CNC control, say for example you use a 10mm tool in fusion and you set it to be 10mm then if you cut a 2D contour then the toolpath which will be the center of the tool will be exactly 5mm from your selection and will cut to the size of your Model/Sketch, all good so far.

 

Now to make the actual cut of say the 50mm square at the CNC just set the tool diameter in the CNC Control to either a larger/smaller value to move the tool "over", making the value say a diameter of 9.9mm will move the tool "over" by 0.05mm from the line of the toolpath therefore making the part actually 0.1mm smaller so the 50mm square would then be 49.9mm. Hope this made some sort of sense.

 

The big advantage of using the above method is that you can make very small changes at the CNC Control to get your "fit" without having to keep making changes back in Fusion and generating new code and loading to the machine everytime.

How accurate your parts turn out will depend a lot on just how accurate your CNC Machine is, really needs to be 0.01mm or better for best accuracy, your CNC Manual will tell you what it`s rated at, if it has "Precision Ball Screws" it should be pretty good but if it just has "Lead Screws" then maybe not so good depending on where it was manufactured 🙂 🙂

The scaling should work, it is usually best to have the object in your case the "heart" centered on your "Origin" and use the "Uniform Scale" option.

 

Can you upload your Fusion f3d file ?? Go to :-

 

File > Export > Select f3d format > Save to a location on your computer > Then attach it to your reply using the "Attachments" facility below your reply box

 

Simple Scaling Example shown below and example file attached for you to check, look at the scaled setting, if you play around with that setting you will see the inlay block change size and you can set it to whatever you want 🙂

Scaling Example.jpg

 

Apologies for the long winded answer 🙂

Message 5 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Ok. There's a lot going on here. First I have a bunch of tools but don't have them all entered into fusion or linuxcnc with individual ID's. I know I need to work on that. My tool had an ID of 1 and it's an 0.8mm x 5.5mm square two flute. In linxcnc tool table T1 is a 1.2mm whatever... Now I did a test using the original gcode but with linuxcnc tool table updated with a new tool id of 65. So it came out the same, basically the same. Then I went back into my sketch and adjusted the box dimensions of both the pocket box and contour box based on the measurements I took from the carve results. I'm at like 95% satisfaction at this point. I've attached my file and below is listed my data so far. I'm working on some more math and adjustments. I'll post back my findings. But this is going to be trick when lets say you want to inlay something like a letter O, or  just about anything more complex than a square.

 

On two squares 10mm x 12 mm Using end mill of 0.8mm

Pocketing on inside
9.6 0.4 under
11.6 0.4 under

Contouring on outside
10.4 0.4 over
12.4 0.4 over

--------------------------

Square A 10.4mm x 12.4 mm Using end mill of 0.8mm

SqA Pocketing on inside
10.10 0.10 over
12.10 0.10 over
-------
Square B 9.6mm x 11.6 mm Using end mill of 0.8mm

SqB Contouring on outside
9.90 0.10 under
12.0 0.0

--------------------------

 

 

Thanks again,

John

0 Likes
Message 6 of 16

engineguy
Mentor
Mentor
Accepted solution

@johnmartin724 

 

Hmmm, you do seem to be trying to do it the "hard" way, if you are using the 2D Contour toolpath then under the "Passes" tab you can select the "In Control" option which will output a G41 or whatever is needed for Linux, that will bring into play your Tool Diameter Offsets in your Linux Tool Library where you can increase/decrease the diameter of the tool to suit the amount of material you wish to remove/leave for whatever the shape is, can be absolutely any shape whatsoever 🙂

 

Or, if using the Scale method you can make your Pocket/Inlay to whatever size you want, looking at your file it seems to me that you want to make the Inlay slightly larger that the Pocket so that it has to be pressed in and then faced off, if so then all that you need to do is just Scale up the Inlay block and it will be cut to that size with no need to do any adjustments at the tooling in Linux 🙂

 

As they say, "Horses for Courses", choice is yours, whatever is the easiest to get the job done 🙂 🙂 🙂

Message 7 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
I have also found that the scale is about 0.9354838709677419%. lol As soon as 5 o'clock rolls around here in PA i'll be headed out to try carving a 12mm donut!

I don't even want to start messing around with the G command stuff. I've just gotten a grip on g53 and g54. Everything fusion posts is in the g54 using 'clearance height' as the safe retract. I was having an issue where my machine was setup as for example 0 to 500mm on the x, the z might have been 0 to 150. Well when fusion would give a G53 my machine's first move to for the carve was to crash the tool down through the work into the table, move into position then rise up quickly before gently beginning the descent into the work piece it'd just destroyed. lol. So I figured out to set my linuxcnc setup as z -100 to 50 and so on, but that was the biggie.

So I am learning, but at the moment a little gun shy of the offsets for tools. I'm trying the scaling first and we'll see how that goes. Thanks again. I really appreciate the time and advice.
0 Likes
Message 8 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

OK. So the scale method is not really working as well as i would like once i move away from the square. Once i go to a donut with the island it's no bueno. I'm gonna be fussing and fudging with this for an hour then it's on to the next shape? nope. So i went after the tool diameter in linuxcnc tool table. I change the 0.8 all the way down to a 0.35 and nothing at all change in the carving. I've been doing some digging and the only tool offset I can find is the length of the tool. I'm gonna jump on over to the linuxcnc forums and see what they recommend. I'll post back when i know more.

Best,
John

0 Likes
Message 9 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Over at linuxcnc they recommend making these offsets in fusion. So this is what I was thinking when you first mentioned the diameter offset was to lie to fusion about the tool diameter. So I have the 0.8mm end mill in my fusion library. Can I add the tool to a process and then tweak the diameter there in a like local tool edit, or is the only way to actually edit the tool? If I have to edit the tool, then how would this work where I have a pocket and a contour using the same tool with different offsets?

 

Thanks again,

John

0 Likes
Message 10 of 16

engineguy
Mentor
Mentor

@johnmartin724 

 

Yes, I looked at the tool methods in Linux and no, there does not appear to be any Diameter offset facility, probably one reason it is free, get what you pay for I am afraid, all other softwares for similar use do have that facility !!

 

So, you will have to as you rightly say have to "lie" to Fusion by setting for example your 0.8 tool to say 0.79 and actually having a 0.8 tool in the machine or a 0.81 and a 0.8 in the machine.

 

If you use the "Edit Tool" function for one Operation say the Pocket then the tool size will also change in any other Operation in the same program.

What you may be able to do is create multiple tools with the same tool number, I am assuming that you don`t have a tool changer so what you could do is select the appropriate tool for inside/outside, see image below for what you could do.

Just have to be very careful that you always select the right tool for the operation, some better naming in the tool description would probably help, but at least you should be able to "tweak" each one as required 🙂 🙂

Multiple tools.jpg

 

 

0 Likes
Message 11 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
I cloned my 0.8mm tool. Changed the id from 65 to 67 in fusion. Changed diameter to (tried 0.79, 0.78, 0.75 and 0.65). Generated new tool paths and posted using grbl as usual. I also made the clone and subsequent adjustments in linuxcnc tool table, saved and reloaded every time. Not a single change. My 10mm square with an inside pocket consistently comes out 9.8mm. The only way I've been able to get to 10 is to sketch the square a bit over 10. I have stock to leave set at zero in the pocket operation.
0 Likes
Message 12 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

OK. So doing pretty good here with CRC at the controller. I have a good understanding of the tool centered on the path and that I'm basically fine tuning that position. I'm of course having some trouble understanding though precisely what's going on and what the limitations are.

 

If you wouldn't mind please help me with these.

In process set up on the passes tab 'compensation radius acr', on the leads tab 'horizontal lead in radius'. How do these change the tool path and how is it related to the tool size?

 

If I missed a setting in there that also affects the tool path it was an accident and I'd like to know more about that too.

 

What are the limitations? Can I tell fusion i'm using a 10mm tool but tell linux it's a 2mm? Visa versa?

 

I would also like to know why when i make a 10mm square in fusion, tell fusion i'm using a 1mm end mill and to cut outside the line, why do i come out with a 10.4mm or a 9.6mm square instead of 10?

 

Can I tell fusion to use crc in controller, tell fusion to cut outside the line, tell fusion it's a 1mm end mill, tell linux it's a 1mm end mill and come out with an actual 10mm square? if so, why can linuxcnc handle this but fusion can not?

 

Thanks a bunch,

John

0 Likes
Message 13 of 16

engineguy
Mentor
Mentor

@johnmartin724 

 

John, from what we discovered earlier your LinuxCNC does not have the diameter offset facility so you are not able to control adjustments at the CNC Machine.

 

So, really the only option you can really use is the "In Computer" side compensation which means that if you use a 10mm End Mill in Fusion and a 10mm End Mill in your CNC then you will get a square the size that you have either Modelled or Sketched, that is assuming that the 10mm EM that you buy is actually 10mm, they are mostly a fraction undersize so you need to some careful measuring for greater accuracy so that whatever the actual tool measures that is the value that you enter in your Fusion Tool Library for your Document so what you cut in Fusion will be cut at the machine assuming accurate machine.

 

Doesn`t matter what diameter value you put in Linux, the G Code only calls the length offset using a G43 Z** H** number so it just calls that tool number and uses the length offset that you have in Linux for the tool, if you want to physically put a different size tool in the CNC then you can do that and the size of the part cut will be changed, for example you use the "Left side compensation" to follow a shape and program an 8mm diameter tool in Fusion the toolpath generated will be exactly 4mm from whatever you selected and if it is an 8mm tool in Linux and cutting a 20mm square you will get a 20mm square, depending on the actual size of the tool, so, yes, Fusion will cut the correct size 🙂

See the image below for LinuxCNC code, you can see that for the 8mm tool it has a G43 Z20. H8 line, this just calls up that tool that hopefully you have designated as Tool #8 in your LinuxCNC.

 

Your limitations are at LinuxCNC, not at Fusion, now, as you are unable to make adjustments to the compensation at LinuxCNC you will need to do it in Fusion so some "fudging" will be required and some Math, so, if you are doing a 20mm square and you have an 8mm tool in LinuxCNC then if for example you want to move the toolpath a small amount and make the 20mm say 19.8mm then you need to take an extra 0.1mm off the sides, to do that you can set the tool size in Fusion to 7.9mm, Fusion "seeing" a smaller tool will move it closer to the selected edge so when the code that is generated runs in LinuxCNC with the full size 8mm tool the 20mm square will be cut smaller because the distance from the center of the tool which runs along the toolpath will be greater and so will remove more material.

Hope some of this made some kind of sense 🙂 🙂 🙂

Generated using LinuxCNC (EMC2)Generated using LinuxCNC (EMC2)

 

0 Likes
Message 14 of 16

engineguy
Mentor
Mentor

@johnmartin724 

 

The Radius under the "Linking" tab is for the approach to a cut and the departure and is used to make an approach that is gentle enough to to not break tools and/or a cleaner move, it is part of the toolpath and the center of the tool will follow it the same as the main toolpath so no problems there 🙂

 

Have got the "Stock to Leave" selected under the "Passes" tab ? That will leave material that would normally be removed with a "Finish" toolpath, usually a 2D Contour.

 

You could use the "Stock to Leave" to fine tune the size if you like instead of making the tool larger/smaller which I didn`t think of before, so, same size tool in both Fusion and LinuxCNC and then if for example you wanted to make a Pocket a small amount larger you could set a Negative "Stock to leave" such as -0.1mm, this would take an extra 0.1mm off your shape all the way round 🙂 🙂

0 Likes
Message 15 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hey Engineguy,

                             The offsetting does work in linuxcnc. It's done in the tool table file by changing the diameter of whichever tool is loaded. Afterward reload the tool table and reload the work file for compensation to be applied. I've made quite a few test cuts on the same work file with just simple shapes and can say for sure that adjusting the tool table does alter the tool path. Or should I say the tool's position in relation to the path. I'm just having trouble understanding what the different radius controls in the process setup are doing. I wish I was able make a hundred slightly different pocket processes and look at them at one time.

 

Anyways, no I've only ever used 'stock to leave' a handful of times. I make sure it's off. Once I can get a better grip on these various settings and adjustments I'll be able to do a roughing pass and finishing pass with the same file and tool or several tools, but all the same code file.

 

I had acquired a large oak block from a local amish pallet factory and i also have some mahogany on hand. Cut a plank of each on the band saw, faced them on the mill. Ran my 'in control' compensated jobs and here's the result!

 

 

20220911_193752.jpg

 The width of the walls that make up the heart face are 2mm. When making this heart project for both the pocket and contour I told fusion that I was using a 0.8mm end mill and fusion continued to give me a hard time about the tool gouging somewhere. I went down to a 0.6mm in fusion and messed around with the radius controls until fusion was happy. I have no idea why it was happy. This is what I'm having trouble understanding.

 

 

 

This was my third attempt with the compensation. I used a 1.2mm end mill in fusion and I believe I used a 0.8 in the spindle while applying the adjustments in the picture below to the linuxcnc tool table. This is 5.25mm plywood. The pocket is 2mm deep, no glue and I can not get these apart.

 

20220910_033919 (2).jpg

 

0 Likes
Message 16 of 16

johnmartin724
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I just found my answer in some earlier visited autodesk and linuxcnc documentation.

https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=GUID63E7157F-5214-4357-9C27-5366F0B8D900

http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/tool-compensation.html#sec:cutter-compensation

Thanks again engineguy for getting me started in the right direction here.

Best,
John

0 Likes