Thermal simulation: 2-layer PCB with via

Thermal simulation: 2-layer PCB with via

Anonymous
Not applicable
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Message 1 of 9

Thermal simulation: 2-layer PCB with via

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi,

I have been performing a thermal simulation on a simple 2-layer PCB with a single copper plated via. I want to illustrate the via's contribution for removing heat out of the board. For the simulation I have applied an internal heat generation of 10 W to the top, copper surface of the board. I also applied a temperature of 20 degrees C (room temp) to the bottom, copper surface to satisfy boundary condition constraints. I applied automatic contacts. The attached pictures show the model, simulation, and dimensions of the part. The material used between the two copper surfaces is FR4. I want to produce a more parabolic flow of heat through the via and am wondering if this is plausible and if so how. 

 

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Message 2 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

Here is the Fusion file for the problem above. It would not let me attach a STEP file.

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Message 3 of 9

jorge_garcia
Autodesk
Autodesk
Hello Brandon,

I hope you're doing well. Unfortunately, none of the images made it into the post could you try zipping them up and then posting them again?

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,


Jorge Garcia
​Product Support Specialist for Fusion 360 and EAGLE

Kudos are much appreciated if the information I have shared is helpful to you and/or others.

Did this resolve your issue? Please accept it "As a Solution" so others may benefit from it.
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Message 4 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

Below I have supplied a zip file with the images I am referencing in my post.

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Message 5 of 9

mickey.wakefield
Autodesk
Autodesk

 Hey Brandon -

 

Two things: 

1) did you know that there is a thermal simulation for the Fusion Electronics workspace? I don't think you used it here. That's just fine - but I thought I would let you know. That Electronics Cooling workspace is simplified for electronics workflows.

 

2) I know what's going on here. What you've done is a very common beginner's mistake for thermal analysis. Easy to fix though.

 

The problem is that 20 C boundary condition you defined. While saying "this surface is in contact with the air, so it is 20 C," sounds reasonable, it doesn'T work the way most people expect. If you say that surface is 20 C - then it is ALWAYS going to be 20 C. NO MATTER WHAT! 

In effect - if that surface begins to heat up due to the thermal loads around it, it will keep pulling more energy out of the system until it reaches 20 C. If it starts to cool down - it will start pumping energy INTO the system to keep it 20 C!

 

Using temperatures as boundary conditions is tempting, because we can so easily measure them - but a thermal analysis should be thought of more like an energy balance problem. You should not define states of temperature, you should define heat sources, and heat sinks.

 

So - chips and stuff like that are easy. They put out so and so many Watts of energy. This is easy to define. If that was ALL you did, you couldn't really do a thermal steady state analysis though, because you would be defining a heat source, but nowhere for the heat to leave the system. Anything you do not define is considered adiabatic. The model doesn't know about air around it, or anything else! In the case I just described - the chip would keep heating the system up without end, so there would be no steady state result possible. Although a transient analysis COULD be done.

 

You'll need to define areas of conductive heat loss to get energy out. (if you have any) This is harder to do. You'll need to know how much energy your steel screws pull out and enter this. Its gonna be minus Watts/sq m or something like that.

 

Even this is usually not enough! There is the odd chance that your heat source and your conductive heat loss line up juuuuuuuust right. All the heat going in, goes out. This will give you a steady state. But it is highly unlikely. To get everything balanced up - you are going to have to account for convective losses too.....and this, on every surface where they are occuring.

 

This will square up the circle for you because convection is special. As a part gets hotter, convection pulls ever more energy out of the system. Eventually - your part gets so hot that it will pull all the energy you are entering into the system out, and you will reach a steady state! This is the trick!

 

The units on that coefficient are Watt per sq cm per degree Kelvin, or something like that....see? The other thing you will have to define is the ambient temperature. If you put this thing in a 500 degree oven, it would actually pump energy back INTO the system...get it?

 

Where do you get all these numbers?

 

Well - there are handbooks full of them. My Marks Mechanical Engineers Handbook has whole chapters on this. Google can help. Try looking for "convection coefficient for ambient air at 20 C with 60% humidity" and "thermal conductivity of steel" for examples.

 

This is a long explanation - but this happens so much to so many people, that I thought it might be worth it to describe it in some detail. Hope it helps.



Mickey Wakefield
Fusion 360 Community Manager
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Message 6 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

Wow thanks for the elaborate reply. So I approached the problem again but this time used different boundary conditions. I still applied heat generation on the top copper surface and then I applied free air convection to all the faces of the part and removed the applied heat on the bottom surface. I also applied manual contacts between the copper plated via and everything it touches where it is nested in addition to automatic contacts. I also refined the mesh. Doing all of these, I still did not achieve the results I am looking to illustrate. I am trying to show that the copper via is used to transfer heat away from the top copper surface. I also tried placing just a copper body on the top surface and generated heat from that to see if the heat would flow towards and thru the via but it still wasn't great results. Any suggestions of how I could model something to give me the illustration I am looking for. Please let me know. Thanks again.

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Message 7 of 9

mickey.wakefield
Autodesk
Autodesk

In order to be able to say something about your results, we would need to have access to the model. I will say this: if you modelled your situation accurately, and meshed well - your results will conform to measured results.

 

So - either the boundary conditions are not quite right, or the results you expect to see, are not what they really are.

 

Can you get us the model here?



Mickey Wakefield
Fusion 360 Community Manager
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Message 8 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

Here is a STEP file of the part in a zip folder. Above there is a Fusion 360 file.

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Message 9 of 9

mickey.wakefield
Autodesk
Autodesk

OK - I've got the file (the original) and now I'm fooling with it. My results are higher than I would expect for a little PCB - but I must admit, its been some years since I've done these kinds of analyses....I'm sure of my methods - but I am not sure of my coefficients anymore. I'm going to go to the sim team and ask about this. Hang tight.

My guess at the moment is that the thermal load of 10 W is high for such a small segment of PCB. If I simply use ONLY convection to pull energy out of the system - it will be VERY hot before the temperature stabilizes.

I'm also guessing that somewhere - this little PCB will be held by something. Its not, after all, floating in space - so if I add a conductive surface, to bring more heat out - I can get the temps down quite a bit....but not "enough"....I need to ask the guys who are doing this daily to refresh my memory. Perhaps I've done something wrong.....

Lastly - and this I did not do anything about, how is the chip attached to the PCB? usually there is thermal paste on the bottom of those things, and this will act as a strong insulator to the copper plate often. This would, in turn, drive more of the heat to the via....and the whole package would look more like you might be expecting....

 

I'm going to get back to you on this.....

 



Mickey Wakefield
Fusion 360 Community Manager
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