Let's start a petition it's no longer possible that Fusion makes us waste so much time with the crahs...😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

[RitchieFromParis]

Since this morning's update Fusion keeps crashing! moreover I have the error window even when Fusion is closed!!

WHEN WILL YOU FIX ADSSO FILE ISSUES? we need to work we are not your Beta testers now all the FANS of my iMac 27'5K are in ON in permanently.

I will have these crashes noted by a specialized bailiff and take legal action, it is no longer possible, I think I have been patient for 2 years now, the more you update the worse it is.

You are playing with our job!!

[RitchieFromParis]

Hello Mat, and finally happy to read you,

Do you think we are posting all this to annoy you ? do you think we are making it up by saying that we have had crashes for more than 10 days now? do you think we fantasize when we have to start a job one morning with big stress "will I be able to finish it"?

Does this ADSSO file problem wasn't predictable ? in which case why didn't you tell us? we would have been understanding, a big thanks to your technical team,Luckily they are there.

Have you looked at the number of LOG crashes there? For me, more than 50 in a few days and the time lost for our Engineering tasks, because we are Engineer too.

I can understand that you don't appreciate our POST and I'm sorry, but unfortunately this is the only solution to make you react, the proof.

There are indeed only a few irreducible people who express their dissatisfaction, but do not neglect this silent minority, because many have resigned themselves to posting, trust on me.

You who also seem to be an engineer, don't you think that design software should be a companion and not an enemy? Do you find it normal that when we open Fusion we spend more time wondering if everything is going to be okay rather than concentrating on our work?

To conclude if you find Fusion great, and indeed it has potential, but it is way behind a lot of other software, why don't you listen to your customers about their requests? Why impose things on us that we do not need? Why add floors to a building whose foundations are not yet finished?

I give you an example, you are proud to have modified the ICON, was there not more urgent? Like for example simplifying the editing of components which, admit it, is very rigid, but not for you.

I'm sorry Matt for rushing things but when you have 50 crashes in a day and a job that won't be finished on time understand that it causes anger.

We would like to read you more often and know that you are listening to us, the customers, please listen to us when we ask you things, rather than imposing them on us.

We don't want to create a crisis, we have other things to do, but if we waste time posting these complaints, it's time we waste working, I'm sure you understand me.

On the other hand, you have a great team, and I would like to mention them and thank them because without them we could not have continued to work, a big thank you to Ludovic, Pawel (both) Helen, Francis, Panpanfan and of course Jorge.

Thanks and sorry.

[jesper8W75R]

Matt, if you read my post again, you see I refer to the issue with panels being all over the place and not the ADSSO issue.
And, if you read the forums, as you claim you do, you would know that it is NOT ONLY ME who have issues.
It's a LOT of people, and they all seem to suffer the same problems, with some trails here and there.
Especially with the latest May release. Awful.

I really don't care if you can design the electronics for Santa Claus's new GPS with one hand tied behind your back.

The point is that _I_ (and many others) can not design even a moderate sized board without everything blowing up.
And then you blame me (or my computer, which is, btw a completely standard off-the-shelf Mac) ??

LOL

Fusion crashes DAILY for me. Sometimes several times.
Sometimes it can be recreated, sometimes not.
And, just because you don't see a crash report doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I only get the chance to fill in a crash from on 1 out of 4-5 crashes. You see, that ALSO doesn't work.

Just today, I lost hours of work, because Fusion crapped out when I moved a polygon a bit.
A problem which has been reported several times, but to which no fix has been presented.

I have about 60 cases in support, some reported more than a year ago.
AND, surprise! It has NOT been fixed and I (and others) still suffer the same darn bugs every day.

When that goes on and on, you should not be surprised people get a bit tense.
The more problems we get and to which we see NO FIXES, we shout louder and louder in case someone will hear.

I had a nice relaxed video char with Richard, over a YEAR AGO and demonstrated a list of 25, or so, bugs and issues.
I also reported all the issues to support.

A YEAR AGO....
And many of these bugs still exist. Impressive!

I waste hours and hours because of this toy program, but am stuck due to the huge amount of libraries I have built up since the 90's when I started with EAGLE.
Interestingly enough a program that never crashed, but worked like a dream every day.
Maybe not with all the bells and whistles (and shiny new icons) as Fusion. 
But you could TRUST it.
EAGLE was absolutely awesome, until Autodesk bought it and messed it up.
All versions since 7.7 has just been downhill. Slower and slower, more and more unstable.

It's interesting also that so many other companies can release virtually bug free programs that just run and run with no issues.
I have a ton of complex stuff on my Mac, and NONE of it EVER crash.

So, no. I don't buy your explanations.
And, I take if from your slightly agressive defensive stance and blame casting, that this get to you.
Good! That is the point.

We criticize for a reason.

[matt.berggren]

Jesper,  

We listen.  Helen is one of the best QA I've ever had the great pleasure of working with.  As are Panpan, Sally, Wind, Alina and the others that are actively trying to help identify and reproduce issues.  However we need steps in many cases and then given those steps, we can automate testing later to make sure we dont regress.  This is how professional software QA is done.  What concerns me more is that given the 'lack of productivity' you are suggesting, and unhappiness you share with the tools, you continue be unproductive and then leverage the forum as a sort of 'place to shout into the ether'.  The hyperbole doesn't help us in fixing issue but I can definitely identify your sentiment...Just not often identify your issue.

To be sure though, this forum isn't reddit and it isn't a social media site in the conventional sense.  It isn't a place to sling insults and sew conflict and hate and form an Alliance against the very people who are capable of fixing the issues you're reporting and it isn't enough to say "oops, sorry" and then carry on when someone checks you on the tone of your posts.  To say the software is unusable and then continue using it begs the question...how is that more productive?  To not identify and refine and further clarify the issues until we can say "ok, now I see the problem -- we can get on top of that"  just slows the process of fixing something.  In May we closed 500+ tickets - not all bugs, split between small features, bugs and major items like docking performance.  In March - similar.  However the time spent tracking the forum posts and parsing thru the hyperbole for actionable feedback only delays those very same fixes.  Moreover, we aren't nameless, faceless people behind the curtain that can't delete a post or remove a user or...best of all:  fix a customer issue or even give them some much-needed capability they didnt have in EAGLE.  

If the post is helpful in identifying the issues, we will fix them.  If the post is aggressive and hostile and unproductive, I dont spend my time parsing that stuff -- I read the call stack.  If a report comes in time and again from multiple users, I raise the priority, along with QA and PO.  

The windowing problem is solved on an internal build.  We test our software before we put it out and since this slipped thru for some people we are testing it more extensively before we release the fix because that's how this is done.  We also have a fix for the licensing problem that replaces the workaround.  That issue didnt come from my team and was indeed isolated, but smart people identified a workaround to get things moving again while again, we fixed the root of the problem.  Again, I wont release the fix faster than I release the bug because...well...if testing didnt catch it the first time, then we have to find the source of where & why this occurred and include much more in the way of both manual test and automations to address the issue(s).

Let's just conclude that if the posts continue to look like an assault on the tools but lack the color or clarity to help us in identifying the issues, we can't fix those items.  If they sound like an attack on people's qualifications or skills then we take those people off and send them on their way.  Simple as that.  

Have a look at the QT forum then jump up on Twitter and compare.  Qt has their share of issues and some take a while to fix.  Contrast the Visual Studio forum from the general Microsoft user community.  This community is doing real, commercial work and since they value their own productivity, I'd expect them to be asking 'how do I avoid that issue until it's fixed' and 'wait, what is the list of steps that can trigger X?' and yes, holding us accountable to fix things.  But we are all professionals and as such, we want this space to focus on productivity and not theatrics at the expense of concrete, substantive bug reporting.

Matt

[matt.berggren]

Ritchie -- we saw your bug reports and the issue is fixed on an internal build but needed testing before it goes out and we need root-cause analysis on why it went out and wasn't caught in the first place.  The fix takes longer than the bug.  I do not think you shared your issues to annoy me.  We fixed your issue (both ADSSO and panels) because of your report.

[jesper8W75R]

Matt, again, you bang your chest and brag about what you have done and all the issues you have fixed.
Well, if you really did, I applaud you.
But you seem to have navigated past most of MY about 50 REPORTED issues.
YES. REPORTED ISSUES.
You seem to think I only come here to complain. 
All bugs that I have been bringing up here, has already been reported to support and gotten a case number.
Some of even more than once, because the promised fix never came.
In about 9 cases out of 10, I am told that "we can reproduce that" or something similar and that it has been given a FUS-xxxx number, case closed.
I don't think a fix for ANY of those closed cases have actually came out in a release yet.
And, as I said before, some of those issues go back over a YEAR.
Maybe you're running some kind of last-in/first-out on the cases, what do I know.
I just know I have an extremely buggy software, and every time I try to bring that up, I'm annoying to you.
I absolutely agree that the language get a bit harsh sometime, but that's how it goes when you're ignored and things just get worse and worse.

"However the time spent tracking the forum posts and parsing thru the hyperbole for actionable feedback only delays those very same fixes."

Considering the countless hours I've lost, trying to repeat, recreate and report issues in your amazing program, I do not feel sorry at all. (Not to mention the hours spent to recreate lost work. Several today.)
And you say I'm unproductive? LOL
That is seriously offensive. I've spent HOURS here, reporting bugs, recording screencasts with your (also buggy) screencast program, entering support cases, discussing the same.
My Autodesk email folder contains over 1000 emails.
But, yes, actually, you are right.
I AM unproductive. For my REAL work, because your program crashes and flips out all the time.

"best of all:  fix a customer issue or even give them some much-needed capability they didnt have in EAGLE."

I basically don't need or want anything I didn't have in EAGLE. I want the STABILITY of EAGLE.

I actually still uses EAGLE 7.7 sometimes, when I'm fed up with Fusion and the crashing.

These problems that we are seeing, are not just related to Fusion, it was the same with EAGLE 8.0 and onwards.

Worse and worse, slower and slower. Until EAGLE 9.6.2 was totally virtually useless on Big Sur, due to lag.
But at least it didn't crash daily.

"If the post is helpful in identifying the issues, we will fix them."  
This is a joke, right?

[jonrbloom]

@matt.berggren - I'm sorry, but I still don't think you guys are listening. You say you would know if there are large numbers of crashes because you see the crash reports. We have reported several times that most crashes do not generate crash reports - I can't remember the last time Fusion Electronics gave me a crash report dialog and yet I see crashes fairly regularly (I'm on Windows 10 not Mac).

Secondly, as also reported, most of these crashes seem to occur during library work, not in the schematic editor or layout tools. I can't judge from your post how much of the work you have been doing required library maintenance. In my case I have been ramping up on Fusion (from kicad), and so a lot of my work is spent in the library editor as I build up my libraries. Perhaps as I move more towards the schematic and Layout I will also see fewer crashes, but that doesn't mean the library editor is fixed.

The latest releases UI quirks only re-enforce the impression that the software is buggy and not well tested. I take your assertions that it is well tested on faith, but that is not the impression I get when I am using it. I simply don't understand why you didn't notice at least SOME of these issues prior to release.

Berating your customers for getting upset when the software they have paid for is tripping them up constantly is a very strange attitude. We are getting frustrated, so please expect some complaints. The fact is that per my experience, Fusion Electronics is buggy, and the library editor is unstable. In addition I have had a small number of occasions where my design became inconsistent and I had to redo work. This is my experience, and others have reported similar experiences.

I have no idea what others are experiencing except those who report on the forum, though I do understand that this is a slanted metric because it will always be weighted towards negative experiences. All we can do is report what we see.

I have to say, I find your post not consistent with my experience. That doesn't mean you are not experiencing what you say you are experiencing, but that that you aren't also seeing these issues does not mean they are not there.

AGAIN: Please note that many of these crashes do not result in a crash report. The program just dies. This is in itself a problem.

[RitchieFromParis]

I erased this post no comment....

[jonrbloom]

On the error messages, specifically, I haven't seen these on Windows. When Fusion crashes it just exits quietly with no prompts whatsoever.

[RitchieFromParis]

Are you serious ?

It was a litle bit humor, but it seemes you don't have it, I will erase it.

My god...😣

[matt.berggren]

Jon -- This is super helpful.  If Fusion crashes on Windows without a crash report firing we would like to see the dmp file from Windows which would give us something of a direction to go off of.  In the error report we log the last 10 or so commands the user executed (without any user input so we dont know the specifics about 'what part' you place, but rather, we know you placed a part) so that is helpful but if that isn't firing, then the dmp file would be the next best thing (or at times, the most-best thing).  I'm not upset with users for being upset when things crash -- to be sure, I am upset when software vaporizes on me and it happens, some tools more than others, but overall I am pretty stable and I am quick to dump a tool when it crashes all of the time.  

I am instead weary of the proportion of actionable feedback to theatrics and hyperbole.  If we have something like "when I'm in the library I am crashing and not getting an error report" then the next question(s) is/are:  what type of library, what were you doing, can you send me the file, has it happened again, can you send me a dmp file, can you recall anything unique that was happening...etc.  To say that would be more useful than using the forum only to vent frustrations is an understatement.  I am all for sharing your experiences but then give us actionable feedback and we will fix whatever you find -- promise.  We will fix anything we can track down -- period.  ...And if you dont get that fix, come straight to me and say "man, this is killing me -- I can't get XYZ done" and I'll go as far as to sit with you and watch you work and try and follow the steps and get you up and running myself.  I'm not necessarily the best support dude but I can sleuth thru software engineering problems and performance issues if there is something we can fix.  It's a bit of the same as my days as an EE / Physics dude.  I joke with people that as EEs we only chide with marketing because marketing wants to talk about what could go right and EEs want to discuss what can go wrong.  We're not telling you it can't be done...We just tell you what to expect and let the others figure out if that's acceptable.  In the case of Electronics in Fusion I wear both hats and as a result, my instincts are to delay features until we refactor something to where we can answer the questions "how does it work?" and "would we build it the same way today knowing what we know about the limitations inherent in the EAGLE code?".  This has slowed things down a bit from the fever pitch that we had when we took over the EAGLE code and moved the core of it into Fusion but that has been, for the most part, for the better.  Not altogether done yet which I think is where the instabilities come from.  Compound that with a change in fundamental approaches to data, libraries, and all of the functionality Fusion packs into it and we have a lot more surface area to consider but it wouldn't be as powerful as it is without this balancing act.

No SW engineer I've worked with would ever say "wow, that's super unstable...ship it!" and our QA, including Helen, would never let us do that.  We have a bit of a push-pull there but the frequency of Fusion releases makes it easier for us to wait if we see instabilities that we feel could create a problem for users.  (QA doesnt just do workflow testing but every release they do a sort of 'chaos testing' where they do every task I would never expect a user to do and click on every conceivable sequence of commands...It is a sight to behold when you see how they think and work -- for more thorough than me, who uses the software knowing how CAD systems tend to work.).

Still, I would strongly encourage you to reach out to me directly and folks like Pawel and Helen and Jorge and tell them you want me to look at something or need them to escalate something because it's holding you back.  We talk daily.  No ivory tower.  I have genuine empathy for what it is to be an EE and have deadlines.  It comes from experience and though I wont commit that we can deliver a fix each and every time when you need it, I will commit to trying to help you resolve any issues you have, even directly if we can dispense with the unpleasantries and talk like two EEs trying to tackle a problem where the tools are getting in the way.  We (ADSK) only win if the product is stable and having worked at the competition, I know what we are competing against.  We try and outdo the responsiveness of 'the other guy' and we would happily engage with folks just to know what would help us differentiate that level of engagement.  If nothing else, that is a valued feature worth paying for.  So by all means, report bugs.  Tell us about crashes.  Ask to escalate things.  Nothing there is wrong-headed.  The issues I express are with the "EXTRA EXTRA..." subjects and the all-CAPS posts which lack substantive guidance we can do anything about.

Cheers,

Matt

[jonrbloom]

@RitchieFromParis  - I know it was meant to be funny. Might just be cultural differences. All good.

[jonrbloom]

@matt.berggren - Thank you. This sounds encouraging. Can you tell me where to grab the dump file from when it next happens, and I will submit a bug report. Otherwise I have to stop work when it happens so that I don't overwrite it while I wait for support.

I have mentioned previously that the crashes are mostly in the library editor, and that there are no crash reports. As have others. I certainly try to refrain from too much hyperbole, but it depends how weary I am of the uphill struggle that Fusion Electronics seems to present much of the time. I have also listed those in another post because I agree that posts need to be actionable, and not just "This s/w doesn't work" type statements.

Note that despite posting about these issues previously,  I have never been asked to send a dmp file until today. Had I, I would have jumped on it, because I do want to see these issues addressed. I am hopeful that this will help.