Does anyone fully understand libraries in Fusion Electronics ?

[pezula.alan]

I love Fusion so don't take what follows as a negative but more a plea for help.

I get by creating new parts, but quite often wonder how I get a result and where it ends up.

I get that there are libraries and that there are devices.

I have watched all the tutorials by Autodesk and third parties and it is still as clear as mud.

The Autodesk tutorial focusses on steps to do but like all tutorials written by an engineer it misses the simple background stuff.

If you create a library is this similar to folder and if so where does it live ?

Should I see a folder within Library folder that matches the name ?

How do the commerical libraries get multiple devices inside a library ?

Should I be able to do this ?

I know I can create a library from a PCB design that holds all the parts in that design but that isn't quite the same.

I find myself in idle moments wondering if it is just me and I am missing something so simple that would light the bulb and my nightmare would be over.

But it hasn't happened for me yet.

Anyone else out there struggling like me ? Or is there anyone out there that really understands it all and can explain in really simple terms so I can get on with the complicated stuff designing PCBs and sleep at night ....?

[jorge_garcia]

Hi @pezula.alan,

I'll do my best to clarify things for you.

First, remember that Fusion stores everything on the cloud so the comparison to a Folder breaks in a few places but thinking about it as a container is more general and works better.

When you create a library in Fusion from scratch and save it, you are saving it to a project within a Hub in Fusion. By default every user gets 1 Hub, think of it as your sandbox. All of your data stays contained within the hub. You can think of these projects as folders. Personally I recommend, creating a Project called libraries and storing all your libraries in that project that way it's all in a single location and you don't have to think about it any further.

Because a library is a container, it can contain as many components as you want in it. You can use the import button when creating new components/symbols/footprints to re-use assets from other libs. If you have an EAGLE background all of the managed libraries are stored on servers.

Let me know if you have any other doubts.

Best Regards,

[pezula.alan]

Hi Jorge and thanks for your reply.

I am an engineer and I like to have a mental picture and understanding of structures and how they work in order to use them efficiently.   I struggle with Fusion Electronics in this respect.

First of all a general question  - top down when logging onto Fusion I see what I regard as being the root folder (under the House icon) which has My First Project, Templates, Libraries etc.   Is this root folder a hub or is My First Project a hub ?

Rightly or wrongly under My First Project I have created a large number of folders relating to my different Fusion (non Electronic) modelling projects.   I think you are saying that this is the wrong way to do it and all these individual projects should be listed as projects under the root icon ?  (But perhaps it doesn’t matter because they are all in my storage allocation on the web with appropriate database linkages ?

Specifically in Electronics – I find the term library confusing.   A library to me is a building with lots of shelves containing books.  It is a tree and branch structure – the building, the room, the shelf, the subject, the author and finally the book.   The term library in FE appears to get used to refer to many  of these in some way or other.

In Fusion Electronics the term library file appears to have different meanings.  It can be a single component with a *.lbr name or it can be a group of components stored for convenience as generic ‘Capacitors’ or ‘Connectors’ or it could be a single component that has many different physical properties (different footprint or package etc).  This latter aspect suggests that each of these variants in properties must have a *.lbr file ?

To create a new component (*.lbr) file you appear to have to follow a rigid process of creating a symbol, then a footprint and then a 3D package.   Each of these constituent parts appear to be completely independent and can be named anything you wish to call them.   Once you have followed the process your final action is to name and save what I assume must be a linkage file combining these constituents and this becomes the *.lbr.   Then and only then does the new component exist.

Are the constituent parts frozen in their form at this point together with copies of what they ‘looked like’ at the time of the creation of the component being created.  Are they stored away as linked items to the *.lbr? 

Can you access these constituent parts to re-use them on new components and if you do and edit them in any way does this impact back onto the original component characteristic’s ?

If I look at say a Sparkfun library for capacitors, on any one item in their library there is likely to be a drop down icon that shows variants of the specific item that has a different symbol or footprint or 3D package.   How are these variants created and stored ?   They most likely share a common symbol but probably a different footprint or 3D model.   Can you do a Save As on the original *.lbr and then edit it but then how does it get associated with the original part created  and do the edits mess up the original component characteristics ?

That’s just an opening few questions but are basic to my lack of understanding or vision of the process.

[chuck_toddN7PTC]

@pezula.alan 

I have put together some thoughts on this subject. When I first started using Fusion, I found myself is the same type of conundrum. I tried to make it as clear as possible, but the library management is a bit convoluted in my opinion. See the attached document.

@jorge_garcia 

If there is anything I got wrong or left out of the attached document, please feel free to comment.

BR - Chuck

[jorge_garcia]

Hi @pezula.alan,

I'll try to answer in order, if I miss something please let me know.

1.First of all a general question  - top down when logging onto Fusion I see what I regard as being the root folder (under the House icon) which has My First Project, Templates, Libraries etc.   Is this root folder a hub or is My First Project a hub ?
The "root folder" is a hub. Your First Project is a project within said hub.

2. I think you are saying that this is the wrong way to do it and all these individual projects should be listed as projects under the root icon ?  (But perhaps it doesn’t matter because they are all in my storage allocation on the web with appropriate database linkages ?

It is the wrong approach but it will only bite you when you try to share files with others. Projects have access controls that make it easier to share data in a granular way. Folders within a project have more limited controls so you may find it difficult to only share one design and not everything in the project. This is why we recommend using one project for each design. 

3.In Fusion Electronics the term library file appears to have different meanings.  It can be a single component with a *.lbr name or it can be a group of components stored for convenience as generic ‘Capacitors’ or ‘Connectors’ or it could be a single component that has many different physical properties (different footprint or package etc).  This latter aspect suggests that each of these variants in properties must have a *.lbr file ?
OK so here is where the root of the issue is. I mentioned in the previous post to think of a library as a container. The .lbr (or .flbr in Fusion) is the only thing we refer to as a library. Now an electronics library can contain a single component. Often when users or third party make a library that contains only one component they give the library the same name as the component. That's what has giving you that first impression. The 'Capacitors' is again just a container but it contains more than one component. A component is made up of symbols, footprints, and optionally a 3D Model. Components are trees within the container that is the library. 

4. To create a new component (*.lbr) file you appear to have to follow a rigid process of creating a symbol, then a footprint and then a 3D package.   Each of these constituent parts appear to be completely independent and can be named anything you wish to call them.   Once you have followed the process your final action is to name and save what I assume must be a linkage file combining these constituents and this becomes the *.lbr.   Then and only then does the new component exist.

Are the constituent parts frozen in their form at this point together with copies of what they ‘looked like’ at the time of the creation of the component being created.  Are they stored away as linked items to the *.lbr? 
The process is not rigid you can make symbols at any time, same with footprints and 3D models. These constituent parts are independent and you link them in a Component to make a completed part. In 3, I mention that Components are trees. They branch with symbols and footprint, the 3D models are linked to the footprint. So for example within a library you can have a component that looks like this.
LM555
-SymbolofLM555
-Footprint1ofLM555
--3dModelofFootprint1
-Footprint2ofLM555
--3dModelofFootprint2
Components are created within Libraries(.lbr), they are not themselves libraries. In your model the Component is the linkage file. Then contents of the library are independent of any copies that are made in other libraries. So for example changing SymbolofLM555 in library A will not change the same SymbolofLM555 in library B. 3D models are the only exception to this because they are externally referenced.

5.Can you access these constituent parts to re-use them on new components and if you do and edit them in any way does this impact back onto the original component characteristic’s ?

You can definitely re-use constituent symbols, footprints and 3D models to make new components. This is done through an import workflow where you can bring existing assets into the library you are actively working on. The copies generated through this process are independent of the original assets. The idea behind this behavior is to be conservative, you don't want a bad change propagating through possibly hundreds of libraries. Some users have argued that this is wasteful and creates duplication, but we have chosen to err on the side of caution and avoid links.

Let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Best Regards,

[pezula.alan]

Chuck, that is absolutely fabulous.   I have to thank you for taking what must have been so much time to put the document together.

I have spent today 'playing' just making simple two and three pin JST connectors and I have made some progress and your doc has filled in the gaps.

My light bulb moment was realising that the the first save you make names the overall container (the -IFI_Amps on your doc) and you can then just add more and more individual components under this banner but adding a symbol, footprint and 3D model for each.  This keeps them together and not cluttering the search views.   This means I can create a collection of my favourite parts and I am hoping I can import these rather than recreate them.

I still haven't worked out how to do variants.

Thanks again Chuck, I'll probably sleep better tonight.

Kind regards

Alan

[pezula.alan]

Thanks Jorge, that further adds to my understanding.   I think there are others out there that maybe only partially understand all this and the community would benefit from some better tution on the top level stuff.   If the parts are already created, designing a PCB is relatively straightforward (!) but if they aren't I am sure there are compromise solutions and workarounds being undertaken that could be improved upon with better knowledge and less fear of the unknown.

Kind regards

Alan

[Taylor.Chris]

After double clicking on a component, there is a panel on the right for the variants.  There is a dropdown button near the bottom of that panel titled "New", click it and select "Add local package".  This will create a new variant using the footprint or package you select.

[pezula.alan]

Thanks Chris, another piece of the jigsaw which is much appreciated.

Alan

[jorge_garcia]

@chuck_toddN7PTC ,

That is a really great document. Thank you for sharing.

Best Regards,

[mjstn2011]

I use Fusion360 pcb, KiCad, Altium.   My general observation in working with libraries and how they relate to schematics and layout and 3d models operate is certainly one of the most complex and confusing things of all 3 and perhaps other PCB cad systems. I frankly dread them but it is a love-hate thing.   It is daunting but sadly required to struggle with understanding them in ANY pcb cad system. 

I'm ok with the Fusion360 'library philosophy' and it seems well thought out, just 'different' than the others as they are different than Fusion 360.   No easy path to learn these complex things called Libraries.  Don't underestimate the time involved to make new components.  Consider yourself really lucky to find good symbol/footprint/3d models on SnapEda if you do find them else it is into 'edit hell' a deeper level of pain in all of the PCB cad systems.

As far as Fusion360 I have found some killer library abilities that I love and have also struggled with how Components, footprints, 3d models and 'parts' all work together.

My conclusion is Fusion360 library and part editing and creation of parts and attach of 3d models  is about as difficult to understand and the others and libraries in general are just really tough to get a grip on in the 'learning cliff' of PCB CAD.

Hang in there.  Mark

[pezula.alan]

Thanks Mark, I echo your sentiments.

I have spent the last week or so just 'playing' making new libraries and editing them.

This has been greatly helped by the inputs from Jorge and Chuck.

No major light bulb moment but more a gradual dawning ...

I have a document close to publication that records my spin on 'how to' and I will post it in the near future.

Thanks for posting your comment.

Kind regards

Alan

[pezula.alan]

The document is now pretty much complete and is available on the link below and on my blog.

It amalgamates all the help from Jorge and Chuck with my spin on how to create library parts.

It also contains my pet FE crib notes.

Thanks for all your help in getting me there and feel free to distribute.

Fusion Electrical Library notes and crib sheet 

Kind regards

Alan

[mjstn2011]

@pezula.alan   Please be sure to up top of the document specify the version of fusion it applies to at that time of updates or publication.  I have found a massive number of bad hits in looking for fusion360 pcb tips where the modern AI in google says one thing but the menus are in different places.  I 'suspect' a TON of changes happened in fusion 360 in the last few years and the web hits to my queries returned 'stale' info that was changed for whatever reason the Fusion 360 team felt was a 'better UI'.   

Note for @jorge_garcia  feedback to dev team(s):   As far as the fusion team online and in-app documents, please continue to try to have updated online docs at the time of releases.  Yes, this is a MAJOR effort, I get that (been there, have the T-Shirt! LOL).  There should be a checklist in the fusion 360 team release process where if a feature is not also in current documentation you don't push it into release.  This is a very tough thing to do as sometimes different groups and pushes do this but I bet the Fusion team knows this PITA very well but it is important to have in the release process to minimize customer pain.  

So anyway @pezula.alan  please document what rev of fusion your doc came from as I can almost guarantee it will be in partly invalid in 2 years or so with fast changing product like Fusion 360.

Documentation must specify what rev it was noted to apply to at some point in time least people (like me) get frustrated in stale 'help.

Thanks,  Mark

[jorge_garcia]

Hi @mjstn2011 ,

Your comment is very timely, we recently started a process for making sure each release gets updated documentation. Its still a work in progress, but you should notice that all of the new features for this release have documentation in the Fusion online repository here:

https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=ECAD-DRAWING-TSK

Above you'll see the documentation for the new Electronics drawings features.

Thank you always for your input.

Best Regards,

[ImDaveM]

hi, its not just you, The library is atrocious! i hate it with a apssion, it need to be re-writen from scratch!

it needs to be 3D model based not text based, ( make it look and fucntion like mcMaster carr!!! stop with all the lists! so slow,  hierarchy is non-existent, library manager does not manage anything, too complicated, too confusing, ive been asking for an over haul for 6 years and autodesk seem to do nothing to help!

just have ONE library ONLY!!! and only the parts i need. dont need managed, i/o shared / local/ cloud/ used unused and all the other 100 names for "TYPES" of libraries,
if look a library of 100 connectors i don't need all of them, just bring in each component with symbol, foot print and 3d model all in one entity, d autodesk must make sure all components/libraries have 3d models or the library should not be available.. enough of the text base libraries!!!

why can't i search like mc-master carr! 

so .. search resistor  /smd or through hole / value / wattage/ other properties/ forget about searching in individual libraries, if i search resistir look at every library in the cloud system on autodesk!

and why cant digikey, farnell/ mouser etc all have downloadable link of ready to install components to insert into fusion! just one part that i look at on say, digikey? 

it a 3D world, so make the library 3D!!!

I hate the library and there is nobody doing anything about it!

alos, make all editing in the one window, having separate windows and tabs for footprint/ symbol 3d model etc is awful! so confusing!

just fix it!!!

[pezula.alan]

Further questions for Jorge ....

I understand that you can have different versions of the same symbol in different libraries.

If a component is used in a PCB design and subsequently you delete the component or a library that contains a component used in the design, does it cause a linkage problem in the PCB and any other uses of the component ? 

Prior to my lightbulb moment and better understanding of libraries I had created lots of totally messed up libraries and half libraries that I would like to delete so I can have a clean start now I know what I am doing (!).

Suppose you have created a number of new libraries from individual PCB designs using the EXPLIB command line in schematic, can you then merge these individual libraries created from various PCBs into one library and FE automatically remove duplicates ?

This would allow a slow accumulation of an individual's preferred parts into one library.

Alternately could you create a non tracked schematic that just has all the components you are likely to ever use blobbed all over the page and do an EXPLIB on this ?

(This would go some way towards satisfying ImDaveM's desire for one library that has all his favourite parts in it ?)

Kind regards

Alan

[jorge_garcia]

Hello @pezula.alan ,

I hope you're doing well. So once a component is brought into a design it becomes independent of the original library, all of the data it needs is stored in the design. You can delete or otherwise mangle the original library and the design would be fine. So in short, you won't have any linkage problems.

Unfortunately, there is currently no easy way to merge existing libraries. You have to manually import the components between libs and then delete the duplicates. There are requests for this open but the functionality has not been implemented.

The blob schematic idea would probably work, but I would never wish that on anyone. There are users who just use one library and then slowly add to it by gradually importing new components from third-party sources or creating their own. This would be my recommendation.

Best Regards,

[andrew_mcconnellKWAQR]

Another component library mystery is still how to associate 3D packages with footprints. 

Even after trying apparently obvious and commonsense ways to associate a model with a footprint, the component never gets updated.  Tried editing component, editing symbol, 

After the deadline ran out, I sent what I had to the manufacturer and they kindly fixed the component orientations that I was unable to correct using Fusion. It probably took them less than a minute for them. 

[pezula.alan]

Hi Andrew, I'm curious for more details.   My PDF write up that is detailed earlier in this thread was based on creating symbol, footprint and 3D model all as new items within the process steps.  I have not tried to use a third party model and associate it to a symbol and footprint.  I can't think this is any different but it would be a useful addition to my write up.   You mentioned that the third party model was not the correct orientation to match - did it refuse orientation within Fusion 3D modelling environment ?

Kind regards

Alan