Surface Patch Tool Not Cooperating

[sethguy123]

Hello all,

I am designing a small UAV and I am using surface tools to make the fuselage. I would consider myself a novice with surfacing tools, so I am not very knowledgeable about its limitations. I am attempting the use the patch tool to fill a large surface, but it comes up with a vague error: "The operation failed. Try adjusting the values or changing the input geometry."

In addition to this, I am unable to select an interior rail, as it yields the same error.

The only work around I have come up with is to make two separate surface patches, however this creates an unsmooth surface at the seam of the two patches. I find this highly undesirable.

I am unsure of where to go from here and need some assistance. I have the file attached to this post for anyone wanting to inspect for themselves. I attempted to maintain some level of organization, but as I delved deeper into making the fuselage organization went to the wayside, so I apologize.

Thanks,

Seth

[Drewpan]

Hi,

One of the biggest mistakes that people make when modelling boats and aircraft in Fusion

is they work hard and not smart. This is not meant to be derogatory in any way but simply

to point out that some ways are way better than others.

Working with just surfaces is one valid way to model but probably a better way is to make

the model as a solid and then shell the wanted end result. It is heaps easier to work out

things like fillets, chamfers and other joins and sculpting methods with a solid model as

the tools are there to make it easy. Many modellers try to make their model from the

inside out where they create all of the internal stuff first and then put a skin over the

outside. The better way to do this is work from the outside in and create the solid model

and then slice parts off this model to create what you want. An example is a skin of a wing.

Take the wing solid; make a surface; thicken the surface to the desired skin thickness;

Use the new thickened surface to cut away the outside layer of the wing. What is left is the

skin and the inside of the wing. Now you want to create the Ribs of the wing, simply take

the inside shape and slice it with a linear pattern of rectangles; do an intersect cut. Now

you have a series of Ribs at the exact position they should be and at the exact dimensions

they should be. Two very simple operations have done 90% of the design work to create

the wing of the model.

The good thing about fusion is that there are usually more than one way to achieve the

same end result. If you are keen to learn surface modelling then stick with what you have.

If you just want a method that works then stick with what you are comfortable with. I am

more comfortable with solid modelling and shelling. I would suggest that method because

for me it would be easier. I am not ready to learn full surface modelling yet, although I do

often use surfaces with my solid models. Hope this helps.

Cheers

Andrew

[sethguy123]

Thank you for the reply Andrew. I understand what you are saying, however I am confused as to how what you are suggesting applies to my problem. How would you suggest I use solid modeling features to make the fuselage?

[Drewpan]

Hi,

What I am suggesting is that with surface modelling, if you want a nice curve then you

have to model it. Fair enough. However with solid modelling some tools will do it for you

so that makes it easier. I am working on a Project at the moment where I usually solid

model but because of the curves in the model the Fillet tool does not work as I want it to.

The solution here is that I have had to model the fillet with surfaces to get the shape I want.

Much frustrating hard work as the reason my fillet originally failed was because of the

unusual curves and reflexes. The fillet was for strength, not aesthetics so it was required

and surface modelling was the only way.

I have not had a chance to actually look at your file. I was suggesting that because the problem

was getting nice joins on the surfaces that maybe modelling it as a solid might work better. Then

you can simply sculpt the outside using the easier solid tools and then shell that solid later to

get the (presumably) 3D printable version.

My suggestion was more about that if you had modelled the wings as solids and then modelled

the fuselage as a solid that joining them was a lot simpler than with surfaces. Also the solid

tools might help get rid of the seam that is the problem.

@wersy and @davebYYPCU are the experts on this sort of thing so maybe they can assist.

Cheers

Andrew

[TrippyLighting]

---

G.

@sethguy123 wrote:

Thank you for the reply Andrew. I understand what you are saying, however I am confused as to how what you are suggesting applies to my problem. How would you suggest I use solid modeling features to make the fuselage?

---

The shape you are trying to model cannot be achieved solely with Solid Modeling. Hopefully that isn't what @Drewpan is suggesting!

You would create the outer surface of the model from individual surfaces, stitch them together, and then perhaps shell the result. I am assuming that is what you are trying to do.

However, for someone not at least at an intermediate level of surface modeling (in Fusion) this is a very challenging shape.

Surface modeling in Fusion is most successful when the input curves are simple. Use as few control points or fit points, profiles, and rails.

Lofting is the tool to use for 4-sided surfaces, and it is best to model as much as possible with lofts. 

The (boundary) patch tool should only be used as a last resort for the occasional 5-sided surface. Patches rarely have smooth surfaces when used in high-curvature areas.

[sethguy123]

Thank you for the reply, TrippyLighting. Prior to posting, I attempted to create the same shape by splitting the fuselage into smaller sections and using the surface patch for each individual section (I believe this is what you are recommending). However, this creates more lumpy, uneven surfaces with several strange curvature artifacts at each of the corners of the surface patches, much like what is present in my current model. How can I avoid these curvature artifacts in my surface patches? My goal is to have a smooth, uninterrupted surface.

[TrippyLighting]

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@sethguy123 wrote:

... Prior to posting, I attempted to create the same shape by splitting the fuselage into smaller sections and using the surface patch for each individual section (I believe this is what you are recommending). However, this creates more lumpy, uneven surfaces with several strange curvature artifacts at each of the corners of the surface patches, much like what is present in my current model. How can I avoid these curvature artifacts in my surface patches? My goal is to have a smooth, uninterrupted surface.

---

Your goal is not achievable with a single surface!

You'd be surprised how many patches are used in high-end Automotive models. Fusion doesn't have the tools to create such high-end surfaces, or the price tag that comes with them (Autodesk Alias), so compromises have to be made.

You will have to experiment with how to break this into smaller surfaces. But be advised that surface modeling such shapes is not as parametric as simple solid models.

[Drewpan]

Hi,

No I wasn't suggesting that this model could be achieved solely with Solid modelling.

I was suggesting that parts of it could be modelled faster with solid modelling tools.

A Fillet with Solids is a Tool. Creating a Fillet manually as a Surface is Work. One is

clicking button and selecting a seam. The other involves multiple sketches, lofting

and selecting one or more rails and possibly other operations. I If it achieved the same

end result I will use the easier method most of the time.

Cheers

Andrew

[sethguy123]

Understood, the surface needs to be broken into multiple surfaces. But how can I avoid the curvature artifacts at the corners of the patches?

[jeff_strater]

These effects are likely from using Boundary Patch to create the surfaces.  Boundary Patch is known for creating wobbly surfaces near the boundaries.  That's why most people stay away from using it, except as a last resort.  If you can partition your design so that it always create 4-sided surface patches, you can use Surface Loft instead, and you will get much better results.

[sethguy123]

Thank you for the reply, Jeff. I have already attempted splitting the body into 4-sided surface patches, however I cannot avoid having a 5-sided surface patch at the point where the leading edge meets the fuselage.

This problem also occurs at where the trailing edge meets the fuselage.

Is there anyway to avoid this?

[laughingcreek]

you aren't going to be able to get the clean shape you are looking for by lofting the fuselage surface straight into the wing surface.

-loft the fuselage. (primary surface)

-loft the wings. (primary surface)

-then cut back the fuselage and wing surfaces and create a secondary surface by lofting between the cut edges of the fuselage to the cut edges of the wing.  

a model would explain this better.  I'll try and put an example together for you tomorrow.

[sethguy123]

Something like this?

[laughingcreek]

yes, this is the general idea.