Offline ouch

Offline ouch

codefoster
Advocate Advocate
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Message 1 of 12

Offline ouch

codefoster
Advocate
Advocate

I have a few minutes to work on a model that I created yesterday. My days (newborn and a 3yo) are currently small windows of opportunity, but I can't work on it. I get a little spinner on the project in my dashboard and when I double click on it it says "Save to cloud is in the progress, please wait."

 

First of all, "Save to cloud is in the progress" doesn't make any sense in the English language which I believe was the attempt.

 

Secondly, I really hope all of the offline feedback is taken and AD can shift to a model that puts users back in charge of their F360 files. I'm currently still telling folks how much I like this software, but one of the first things I do is apologize for the cloud lock in.

 

savetocloud.png

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Message 2 of 12

O.Tan
Advisor
Advisor
I'm not sure why they don't implement it like Dropbox/GDrive, cloud backup and sync is cool, but it's not cool when I just created/saved my file for the first time and have to wait for it to upload to the cloud (which sometimes takes longer then it is)

My guess is they choose this compromise to ensure they have at least 1 copy in their servers for a newly created file. I wonder what if they do this instead, in the background when the user is doing work, it'll create a duplicate and then upload that duplicate online and then once that's done, link it back and update the file stored in the cloud with the necessary changes.

This is just an opinion 🙂


Omar Tan
Malaysia
Mac Pro (Late 2013) | 3.7 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5 | 12GB 1.8 GHz DDR3 ECC | Dual 2GB AMD FirePro D300
MacBook Pro 15" (Late 2016) | 2.6 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 | 16GB 2.1 GHz LPDDR3 | 4GB AMD RadeonPro 460
macOS Sierra, Windows 10

Message 3 of 12

codefoster
Advocate
Advocate

There was another thread where alternatives were discussed. I wish it worked exactly like Office 365 (disclaimer... I work at Microsoft). I can work on Office files locally if I'd like. Email them to friends. Sneaker net if I'm feeling nostalgic. Save to any or all of my cloud storage servers of choice. Or I can save them in the O365 platform and get all of the advantages such as history and live collaboration. I see the tremendous benefits of the A360 collaboration platform. Only Autodesk knows the inner workings of these proprietary design files, and they are the best folks to create a collaborative cloud environment for it. I love having the option to easily include a new pal on a design project I'm working on. Love the ability to see and change history. It's great. It just needs to be a strong option... not a requirement. That's called lock in.

Message 4 of 12

prabakarm
Alumni
Alumni

Interesting conversation and one we have regularly within the team.  Few comments...

 

The overall mental model in Fusion is a project/product centric model with people, activity the people do and data being used or created for the project or product all being interrelated so that we can deliver tools for a collaborative design and product development experience.  So when you hit save all the changes to those three facets (people, activity and data) gets saved.  So a particular version could have changes in geometry, meta data such as parameters, materials which help in creating and displaying the geometry, comments and eventually markups associated with the person in the project etc etc.  A rich set of interelated information gets saved and there is is no single file capturing all this info.  The data is distributed and certain aspects of the data can acted independent of each other thru multiple devices and by different people.  So it is a bit different than than products like Solid Edge or SWX or Inventor.

 

So to bring this collaborative design experience we had to manage the data more intelligently and the distributed nature of it does not lend easily to a file sync/drop box model.  BTW, if you are wondering about Fusion archive file or .f3D and thinking that it is the "Fusion file", it is not.  It basically contains modeling data such as geometry and feature receipe.  It does not know about people, projects, folders, activity etc. 

 

Looking ahead we are working on supporting ability to branch and merge your designs to explore variations, concurent review and editing etc. so that the overall journey of a project can be captured.  All these required us to think beyond a file sync model.

 

The key issue you guys are raising is performance in saving or capturing this rich data.  It is a very valid point and one we are working very hard on.  In the Feb release we will be changing some of the core Fusion data infrastructure to help with the stability, performance and scability of the system and will continue to work on it post Feb.

 

Prabakar.

 

P.S: In writing this response I wasn't sure if I am doing justice behind the thinking.  Happy to host a call for discussion if needed or continue the conversation on this forum.

Message 5 of 12

O.Tan
Advisor
Advisor
Aah, thanks for clearing up things. I knew they must be a reason for not opting over the more popular and quite standard dropbox style of syncing.

From the sound of it, it's possible to have some projects to be strictly offline (cuz some is bounded by NDA?), but you'll lose all the collaboration, backup and etc features.


Omar Tan
Malaysia
Mac Pro (Late 2013) | 3.7 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5 | 12GB 1.8 GHz DDR3 ECC | Dual 2GB AMD FirePro D300
MacBook Pro 15" (Late 2016) | 2.6 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 | 16GB 2.1 GHz LPDDR3 | 4GB AMD RadeonPro 460
macOS Sierra, Windows 10

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Message 6 of 12

prabakarm
Alumni
Alumni

Not really.  The Fusion desktop client does not have ability to manage projects and project data without being connected.  So you cannot work strictly offline for long.  The offline workflow currently supported is primarily when you don't have internet connection or have spotty connection but you need to continue working for a short period of time.  As you know it basically works with the model caches and the changes will be synchronized on reestablishing a connection.

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Message 7 of 12

codefoster
Advocate
Advocate

Glad to hear the team is thinking about this and working on the best scenario.

 

I hear you say that it's not just a matter of the model, but involves people and history and a lot of stuff, and I understand that that stuff is all value-added, but it's still true that none of that stuff should be required for working on a design. I don't need to collaborate. I don't need to have a rich history stack. This modern model that you're talking about where it's not just about the work - it's about the people and all of the other rich metadata - that's where all (good) software companies are going with their suites. It's my opinion, though, that if Autodesk requires folks to work in their world, on their platform, in their structure, they're going to upset the users.

 

It's not about dropping the capabilities that your cloud system offers. Like I've said, it's value-added. It's good. I like it. It's more about lock in. Even if your system offered the exact same file sync functionality as the other cloud storage systems, if by choosing Fusion 360, I choose that I have to use Autodesk's cloud platform in order to even create... save... open... design?! That will not go over well.

 

To be a bit more responsive and tie my thoughts directly to your notes...

 

>A rich set of interelated information gets saved and there is is no single file capturing all this info

I don't always want a rich set of interelated information. Often, but not always. There are some strong scenarios where I want to use a good tool, to create a top secret model without any collaboration with anyone else. The fact that F360 is so close to being able to do that (I'm thinking about the .f3d archive feature) means it should not be difficult to light this scenario up entirely.

 

>So to bring this collaborative design experience we had to manage the data more intelligently and the distributed nature of it does not lend easily to a file sync/drop box model

I wish it were more like "...if a user decides to opt in to this collaborative design experience, then we have to manage the data more intelligently..."

 

>Looking ahead we are working on supporting ability to branch and merge your designs to explore variations, concurent review and editing etc. so that the overall journey of a project can be captured.  All these required us to think beyond a file sync model.

I agree that to enable the stuff you're talking about, the simple file sync model falls short. But the simple file sync model should be there too. I'm not proposing a reversal of the direction Autodesk is taking the platform. I'm not even proposing a diversion. I'm proposing the inclusion of the simple case for the purpose of a) true offline story b) feeling of user being in control of their stuff c) NDA work d) ability to keep design files in another system when the project demands it e) anything else I didn't think of 🙂

 

>The key issue you guys are raising is performance in saving or capturing this rich data

That's not the key issue I'm trying to raise, though it is an issue. The offline story is only a hard one right now because of Autodesk's explicit exclusion of the ability to create, edit, and save locally. If I want to work my simple scenario (create, design, save, print, done) then I could have excellent performance all the way through.

 

Hope my thinking helps your thinking. I hope you're reading all of this as amicable and constructive, and I hope you translate my enthrusiasm as passion for a good product and a genuine desire for progress. Happy to keep up the conversation.

Message 8 of 12

prabakarm
Alumni
Alumni

Sorry for the deplayed response.

 

This forum is about having a constructive conversations like this one and I really appreciate you taking the time to put forth your thoughts.   Couple of questions from my end...

 

1. What constitutes a design for you?  Is it just the geometry or parameters etc.  I am curious 

2. I would also better understand your comment about being locked in.  How is storing your data in Autodesk services any different from box or one drive.  I am trying to understand your core concern here.

 

Prabakar

Message 9 of 12

codefoster
Advocate
Advocate

@prabakarm wrote:

This forum is about having a constructive conversations like this one and I really appreciate you taking the time to put forth your thoughts.   Couple of questions from my end...

Agreed. Thanks for facilitating this sort of user interaction and feedback.

 

1. What constitutes a design for you?  Is it just the geometry or parameters etc.  I am curious 

I'm not familiar enough with the product yet to draw the boundaries really well. I guess I would answer that the design is the collection of data that describes the part itself. I believe parameters would be included in that, but what I would consider metadata such as who has worked on it, what milestones the product has gone through or where it's at in the design process right now, etc. may not be expected to travel with the part. You could look at any other package like Trimble Sketchup and see what exists in their portable files. I can create a Sketchup file, design a widget, print the widget, email it to a coworker, etc. To be clear, this would hopefully be only select scenarios where all of the rich offerings of A360 aren't needed and where they might limit the process (NDA, offline, projects that have pre-established repositories for collaboration, etc.)

 

2. I would also better understand your comment about being locked in.  How is storing your data in Autodesk services any different from box or one drive.  I am trying to understand your core concern here.

Lock in as I am using the term is a constraining of my workflow as a user. When I choose to download music from an app store and am then unable to play that music unless I use a certain hardware device. When I choose to create my file in F360 and am then unable to choose a cloud storage provider. Or in a more severe case when I'm still paying for the F360 service and am unable to work on my file without an internet connection. Essentially, when I use software as a service and am then obligated to use that service to access my own creations.

As a user. I want to feel like I've chosen a good tool to create something, but then I want feel like (and should in fact be) the owner of that content. It is my creation.

The difference then between storing my file in A360 versus Dropbox or OneDrive is that I as the user get to choose Dropbox or OneDrive. Or A360. Microsoft Office is an everyday part of my workflow, but boy would I be turned off if in order to work with Office files I had to a) be online and b) use Microsoft's cloud platform. And that's despite the fact that I'm almost always online and I really like Microsoft's cloud platform.

I'm aware of the many benefits a company has in having users on their platform. It's controllable and it facilitates certain assumptions, certain metrics, etc., but a company is better off to keep the user in control and accept some reduction of control. Your software package (F360) enables users to create and your cloud service enables users to collaborate. Users want to feel enabled and have the ability to choose. Not be confined and have choices made for them.

Hope that helps.

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Message 10 of 12

konkers
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@prabakarm wrote:

Not really.  The Fusion desktop client does not have ability to manage projects and project data without being connected.  So you cannot work strictly offline for long.  The offline workflow currently supported is primarily when you don't have internet connection or have spotty connection but you need to continue working for a short period of time.  As you know it basically works with the model caches and the changes will be synchronized on reestablishing a connection.


 

A lot of the features around project management you are adding like design branching seem to have direct parallels to software source control.  In the past decade the concept of distributed source control (like git) has gained popularity partialy because of it's power to do meaningful version control operations without having a connection to a master server.  It seems like ths concept is just as useful and powerful in the CAD/CAM world (especially to someone who is currently having cloud connection issues and can't open any files.)

 

Cheers,

   Erik

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Message 11 of 12

prabakarm
Alumni
Alumni

I am back.  Was on the road for last few days.  I see the point you are making and the one we have debated a lot internally as well.  Eventually we might move into a federated model of managing data where you can leverage onedrive for example with limitations but at this point the focus is to get this rich experience working well with the Autodesk cloud services.  

 

It is interesting that you seperate creation as the role of F360 and collaboration as that of cloud services.  Internally we look at both as the role of F360 leveraging a client and service architecture.  The reason we went with a client and service architecture is that is what gave the best interactive experience.  That said expect to see creation tools in the web and mobile soon.

 

BTW, Jon's blog is great.  I believe you and Jon work together.  If you guys work in Seattle I was wondering if we can continue this discussion face to face with an extended team.  We are in Portland, OR. Let me know.

 

Thanks,

Prabakar.

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Message 12 of 12

prabakarm
Alumni
Alumni

Erik,

 

You are right.  We are leveraging lot of the software source code control principles.  Git copies the entire repository, including all of the versioning information, locally.  Therefore users can operate completely independent of master repository while off line.   It does sync up when you connect.  We are not sure how well this strategy works with binaries, large datasets and projects the size of a large design in the CAD/CAM world.  So we are looking into supporting working with branches offline once they are created when connected or in other words we will not be supporting creating branches in an offline mode.  This will be starting point for us to evolve from.

 

Prabakar.

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