Finding the Source of a Driven Dimension?

Finding the Source of a Driven Dimension?

aesilky
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Message 1 of 20

Finding the Source of a Driven Dimension?

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

I am trying to design some kart frames, and in laying out geometries, and trying to add a few key dimensions, I get a message saying that the dimension I'm adding is already being driven. However, the dimension I am trying to add is a 'key' dimension (dictated by rules). How can I tell what in the current design is causing this dimension to be 'driven'?

 

I need to track that down and remedy it without having to delete everything I've already designed. In other words, I want this dimension to be 'the fact' and I'll adjust elsewhere as needed.

 

(I didn't just post this blindly. I've spent most of a day combing through posts, tutorials, videos, etc. to try to figure this out, but the best that I get are suggestions to delete things until the 'driven nature goes away'. I have too much time invested in the design to just start deleting things at random. Fusion 360 has to know what's driving the dimension - so I just need it to tell me. It's answer might be very complex "constraint b + angle xyz + dim a", but at least it has told me.)

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Replies (19)
Message 2 of 20

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

... best that I get are suggestions to delete things until ...

I have too much time invested in the design to just start deleting things at random

 

At least you created it, and can see what you are talking about.

Want assistance from someone coming in cold, at least a picture with notes as to what's needed.

 

Better still, attach the file for assessment.

 

Might help....

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Message 3 of 20

hamid.sh.
Advisor
Advisor

@aesilky wrote:

... How can I tell what in the current design is causing this dimension to be 'driven'?...


There is no definitive answer for the general case, it really depends on the constraints you have. For example in following picture both blue lines have driven dimensions but each for a different reason (and one can construct infinite number of these):

 

driven.png

 

If you share a particular case someone may help you figure out. 

 

... Fusion 360 has to know what's driving the dimension...


No, that's not true, a driven dimension is not like a projected entity that is explicitly referenced to another; in sketching mode a set of unknows + equations is solved and generally driven dimensions are determined implicitly.

 

Edit: I decided to include following to help you understand what I said above. In a set of linear equations like the following picture (from Wikipedia), you can't say x = 1 because of what reason. In general the state of the whole set including every single symbol is the reason for x being equal to 1.

 

system of linear equations.png

 

Now you can think of cases with more explicit relationships: e.g. if we add two more equations: v = 5 and w = 3 * v. Obviously w = 15 only because of the new equations [being explicit], but this is not the general case.

Hamid
Message 4 of 20

etfrench
Mentor
Mentor

If the driven dimension is from another feature, you may be able to move the Timeline back one feature at a time or suppress one feature at a time to find the references.

If it is coming from something in the same sketch, then use the Undo command until you find the references.  Once found, use the Redo command until you're back to the end.  Whether or not you can remove the references depends on the structure of the sketch.  

ETFrench

EESignature

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Message 5 of 20

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

... Fusion 360 has to know what's driving the dimension...

No, that's not true, 

 

@hamid.sh. Of course it's true... The file contains the recipe to drive the outcome.  Fusion does know why a sketch is over constrained, (you are offered driven dimensions if you wish, because it DOES know why a driving dimension is disallowed, just doesn't tell the user.)

 

@aesilky I saw the other reply, hide the bodies, and unhide all the sketches, Let's see the whole picture.

 

Might help....

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Message 6 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

I guess I have two problems...

1. Specific to this design

2. In general

 

Although my immediate need is to solve this design, I would rather have the solution to the general problem - for when I come up against it again.

 

The 'general problem' is - I try to constrain or add a measurement, and I am warned that it will be 'over constrained' or 'the measurement is driven'. I want to know - by 'what'?

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Message 7 of 20

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

In general, you can't move purple geometry in the current sketch, because it comes from another sketch.

Some black geometry will be adjustable by editing.

 

Might help....

 

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Message 8 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

... Fusion 360 has to know what's driving the dimension...

No, that's not true, a driven dimension is not like a projected entity that is explicitly referenced to another; in sketching mode a set of unknows + equations is solved and generally driven dimensions are determined implicitly.

 

I agree that it might not know exactly what is causing the problem. It could be running through equations and simply 'find' that it is a 'fact' (constraint or measurement) that has already been determined by other values, and at that point it stops and gives the warning. (Speaking as a retired CAD/CAM software engineer of 20+ years)

 

If that is the case - I would like to see an enhancement, such that it tracks what it has checked and reports all those that are contributing to the over constraint or driven measurement.

If that is the case

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Message 9 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

I would like to add that - the fact that it can put the 'driven' value in parens means that it knows what the driven value is, and therefore, it can know how it got it.

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Message 10 of 20

hamid.sh.
Advisor
Advisor

@davebYYPCU wrote:

... Fusion 360 has to know what's driving the dimension...

No, that's not true, 

 

@hamid.sh. Of course it's true... The file contains the recipe to drive the outcome.  Fusion does know why a sketch is over constrained, (you are offered driven dimensions if you wish, because it DOES know why a driving dimension is disallowed, just doesn't tell the user.)..


In Sketch there is no "recipe". Recipe is a step by step procedure in which each step depends on previous ones, like in Design mode with timeline. In sketch there are a set of unknowns (points' coordinates) and a set of equations (dimensions and constraints). Once you add a dimension that leads to an impossible set, you are prompted that the dimension is driven. What Fusion knows is that it can't get a solution now.

 

In following sketch nothing on its own is DRIDVING the Φ67.70 circle, but the interplay of all of the dimensions and constraints that I have added lead to this solution. I can delete any one of them and toggle the dimension driving. In essence ALL OF THEM are driving this dimension, together. Also the order of applying them is not important, because again it's not a recipe, but a set of equations being solved simultaneously.

 

sketch.png

 

Hamid
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Message 11 of 20

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

A bit off track here, remove the 67.00 driven dimension, it is still a fully constrained sketch, Fusion knows that and turns all geometry black, at the time you make it fully constrained.

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Message 12 of 20

TheCADWhisperer
Consultant
Consultant

@aesilky 

This should all be a matter of simple logic.

Add your reference (driven) dimension. 

Attach your file here and I will diagnose and explain the simple logic and how to get your driven dimension to a Driving Dimension.

 

For each case the diagnosis will be different - but the logic will be logical (not random).

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Message 13 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

I am attaching my design file. However, I still feel that Fusion 360 should be able to provide a function to indicate what is driving the dimension.

 

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Message 14 of 20

etfrench
Mentor
Mentor
Accepted solution

Deleting the driven dimension in the 'Axle Centerlines Construction' sketch and re-dimensioning the centerline results in a normal dimension of 1200mm.  How it originally was a driven dimension probably depends on how the line was drawn or what points were selected for the dimension.

ETFrench

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Message 15 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

Thank you for the help. How did you come up with this solution? I would have never thought to do/try that. I didn't change anything since I first applied the dimension, yet it was 'driven', then deleting and reapplying fixes it?!

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Message 16 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

I still believe that Fusion 360 should be able to tell you why a dimension is 'driven'. That would make things easier to fix, in-general.

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Message 17 of 20

etfrench
Mentor
Mentor

Well, it would be nice to have Fusion 360 highlight the geometry and dimensions which affect the driven dimension, but it's probably not easy to do and many more users would need to ask for it.

 

Only one end of the line was anchored to projected geometry.  The other was not, so that dimension should not be driven.  It's not possible to tell what that end was initially referencing.  If you can recall what actions you took in that sketch, Autodesk will be able to determine if a bug exists.

ETFrench

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Message 18 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

Having been a developer of CAD/CAM software for many (20+) years, I think Fusion 360 could indicate where a driven dimension is coming from. It tells you that it's 'driven' and it knows the value - therefore, it should know where the value is coming from. The same for something being 'over-constrained'. I will agree that the 'explanation' might not be something that is easily understood, but it could at least give us the chance. Even giving a list of the sketches, bodies, components, that contributed could be helpful.

 

As for where it originally came from... I believe the timeline is accurate, I brought in the two axle-wheel components (externally defined) and placed them based on an approximate dimension. I then created the 'construction' sketch that has the wheelbase dimension that is tied to a user parameter. I want the components' spacing to be tied to this user parameter, such that when I change it (say from 1200mm to 1500mm) the distance between the axles changes. When I tried to set the wheelbase dimension to the parameter is when I received the warning that the dimension was 'driven' and I couldn't specify it. The wheelbase dimension is dictated by rules, based on the vehicle class. So, I want to be able to change it in a parameter, rather than having it built into the model.

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Message 19 of 20

aesilky
Contributor
Contributor

It might be better if I created the wheelbase sketch first. But I would still like more information from Fusion 360 once I encountered the problem.

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Message 20 of 20

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

Your problem is easy diagnosed.

Doesn't matter what comes first the chicken or the egg, 

 

Boils down to Fusion is not a mind reader, the user has to document all things entered into the file.

The problem sketch, has a few sketch lines, but no correlation to anything.

 

finamr.PNG

 

No reference to the origin.

2 small Projected lines, (purple) from the axle unit.

A vertical black line that is connected to both purple lines at the midpoint. (but nothing else - deleted for clarity in pic)

 

there is an orange construction H set of lines the horizontal is 1200 and this dimension is not being driven by anything, other than the toggle switch to do that, toggle it back to driving - (user error here).  The construction line is not colinear with but is close to the black line, so the dimension is not being taken from the black line.

 

A Parameter named Wheelbase that is not used anywhere. If you reset the 1200 dimension with Wheelbase, when you change wheelbase it will change the length of this line.

 

So as I see it, if you later move the wheels that the purple lines come from, nothing is tied to them, so they won't follow..

 

Might help.....

 

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