Event simulation, friction?

Event simulation, friction?

arnou-verfaillie
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Message 1 of 27

Event simulation, friction?

arnou-verfaillie
Advocate
Advocate

Hello there

 

Situation: Doors are put on a stand, this stand has a rake to avoid the doors from falling of. Also the stand is provided with rollers so the doors should rol back. Now 1 side of a door is cut at an angle (so the door will actually open).

 

I want to test if the door wil slide accros the rollers when this angled side is facing down. Some pictures to make things clear:

There are also 2 options with this angled side:

 

Left.pngRight.png

 

So am I correct I should be able to do this with an event simulation? If so, how exactly does this event simulation work? I have not been able to find a tutorial yet. 
I started the same way as I would with a stress simulation: applied gravity (only force that's active). I'm still figuring out the contacts in this simulation.

Also: the doors are made of wood, but I get an error sign when I use wood?:

Capture.PNG

 

I will also put the file in attachment.

Thanks in advance!

Arnou

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Replies (26)
Message 2 of 27

AndrewSears
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Arnou,

 

Give these posts a read.  They go into more detail about using Event Simulation.

 

Getting to know the Event Simulation study type in Fusion 360 Ultimate

 

Quick start for event simulation

 

One of the developers is working on a reply for you now.

 

Cheers,

Andy

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Message 3 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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I've read the "getting to know" post, and I've tried to use the sample files, but they just crash on me for some reason. I've sent the crash reports. 

Did not find the other topic, will investigate this right now, thanks

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Message 4 of 27

John_Holtz
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Hi Arnou,

 

I will try to add some insight. Keep in mind that I am new to Fusion Simulation (but have some experience with simulation in general), so hopefully others will correct any misleading statements I make Smiley Indifferent

 

There are three ways to do the simulation:

  1. the easy way
  2. the hard way
  3. and something in between.

I believe that Event Simulation (ES) is the hard way in this case. ES is more for short duration, dynamic situations. Your situation is very close to being a static situation.

 

One way to do the simulation is to perform a static stress analysis with the door restrained at the points that it makes contact with the rollers and rack. Then look at the reaction forces. If the vertical force at the bottom of the door times the friction coefficient is larger than the horizontal reaction force, the door will not slide.

 

Another way to evaluate the design is to do a "motion study". You know that the door can only fall down; it cannot fall up. So if the center of gravity of the door has to move upward when it tries to "slide" off the rollers, you know that that will not happen. This would be a "fail safe design" because it does not depend on any friction.

 

About the Wood material properties. It looks to me that the simulation is complaining that the type of material properties in the library (orthotropic) are not compatible with the type of properties that the static simulation want to use (isotropic). What you can do is

  1. copy the wood to your Favorites library (or create a custom library)
  2. change the "Behavior" from orthotropic to Isotropic. (You might need to change some of the mechanical properties when you make this change.)
  3. Assign the new material from the Favorites (or custom) library to your part

Then the simulation will be happy.



John Holtz, P.E.

Global Product Support
Autodesk, Inc.


If not provided, indicate the version of Inventor Nastran you are using.
If the issue is related to a model, attach the model! See What files to provide when the model is needed.
Message 5 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

Hi @John_Holtz

 

The static analysis was a very good idea, why didn't I come to that myself Smiley Indifferent

 

However I'm getting this error:

Capture.PNG

 

Did some googling and found out it's something with the contacts? I did an automatic contact generation. However on other forum posts I read that the model might be unstable?

I had some issues with the doors being partially fixed. So I adjusted the joints in modelling. I've made the doors slide against the rack and I've made contactsets between the doors and 2 rollers. Now everything is fully fixed, but I still get this error.

Capture2.PNG

 

Looking at the mesh everything looks fine?

Capture3.PNG

 

There are a couple of components inside others (i.e. there is a smaller door inside the larger door, to check if the model is compatible for both optioins). However I've toggled those components off (in the supress toggle). Could this still be an issue?

 

I keep getting this error.

Ill attach the updated file.

 

Thanks!

 

PS. I've changed the wood to ABS plastic for now, just to make sure I get a result without fiddling with material properties.

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Message 6 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

Yes! After a lot of searching and fiddling around I've found the solution to this error: the contacts between rollers and door has to be seperated instead of bonded. 

Solving as we speak. I will keep you posted if I have other questions.

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Message 7 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

On the other hand...

I've solved on the cloud with a force instead of gravity (testing), which pushed my door through the stand and made it deform. Now I've added some seperation contacts between the stand and changed it back to gravity.

Tried solving on the cloud: had an error receiving the results. So I tried to solve it locally and I have this same exact error again!

Anyone have an idea?

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Message 8 of 27

jeremy.wiesner
Alumni
Alumni
Accepted solution

Hello Arnou,

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I wanted to try running this simulation so I can provide some direct feedback about the steps to take to set this model up and get it running with Event Simulation.

 

This is a great model for the Event Simulation study type. Your intuition is on the right track, you only need gravity and contact in order to get this model to work properly. The general idea is that you'll expose the model to gravity, run it for a short duration and see if the door is starting to fall off the rack. You could run this model with a time duration of a few seconds and watch the door fall towards the ground, but that would be overkill since you only need to know if it will stay up or not. For this purpose, I would start with a time duration on the order of a few milliseconds (maybe as many as 10) to see if the information you need is clear by this point in time. 

 

The first thing I would recommend doing is simplifying this model quite a bit. There's a lot of detail in here that doesn't need to be included in order to get the answer you're after. For example, the complicated support system that holds the stand upright is not of importance for this simulation. We'll assume that you've designed and simulated the support structure properly, so that when a door is placed on it the weight of the door will hardly move the stand. If that's the case, we can remove everything from the model that isn't directly supporting the door and simply fix their locations. I took your model and simplified it down to just the rollers and the supports that hold up the back of the door. This is what it looks like:

 

photo1.png


photo2.pngSince we also don't care about the structural response of the rollers and the support brackets, we can make them rigid bodies in the Event Simulation study. Then we can apply a structural constraint (fixing Ux, Uy, Uz, Rx, Ry and Rz) to each rigid body to fix them in place. Here is the simplified support structure with rigid bodies and constraints applied:

 

photo3.png

Gravity is enabled by default in Event Simulation, so the only thing left to do is to enable contact with friction. This is incredibly simple to do with Event Simulation. Contact modeling is completely general-purpose and automatic, so all you need to do is turn it on and specify the coefficient of friction you want to use. If you click the "Global Contacts" option, the only thing you need to modify in the dialog is the coefficient of friction. I did a quick online search for a common friction coefficient between wood and smooth metal and chose a number of 0.2. I recommend doing some more research to determine what a good number for the friction coefficient is for the materials you are using.

 

photo4.png

 

We're all done, so now we are ready to drop the door and see what happens. I set up the Event Simulation to run for 10ms (0.01 seconds) to see what happens once the door comes into contact with the rollers. With this short of a duration there won't be enough time for the door to literally fall to the ground, but there should be enough motion to infer whether the door is going to stay put. Here is an animation with a view from the side of the door showing the motion of the door at the interface with the rollers. I included a surface probe at the bottom corner so you can see that the X-displacement is actually growing here.

 

You can see that the door is actually sliding out as opposed to falling forward. Here is a plot of displacement in the X-direction showing the whole door.

 

photo5.png

 

The dark blue contour color corresponds to a negative X displacement, which shows that the top of the door is actually falling backwards. If we magnify the displacements a little bit to better see what's going on, this confirms that suspicion:

 

 

photo6.png

 

 

From this it's clear you need supports holding the door that are higher up to prevent the backwards rotation. After you do that then you can try again to see if the door is going to fall forward or stay put on the rollers. 

 

For reference, this simulation took about 40 minutes to run. I've attached the Fusion .f3d file in case you'd like to check it out and run it for yourself.

 

I hope this is helpful to get you started doing more of these types of simulation. Let me know if you have any questions about this process, I'm happy to help.

 

 

 



Jeremy Wiesner

Research Engineer, Fusion 360 Event Simulation
Message 9 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

@jeremy.wiesner

 

Wauw thank you very much!

This is exactly what I wanted to see! Well not really because now I have to redesign my stand :P. But this is amazing!

 

I will try to remake this myself, so I can get a hold of it and so I can test my changes. 

I will keep you posted! 

 

Thanks!!

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Message 10 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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@jeremy.wiesner

 

I still have one question. How did you make this model so simple? Did you just hide the bodies or did you delete them completely?

 

Kind regards

Arnou Verfaillie

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Message 11 of 27

jeremy.wiesner
Alumni
Alumni

Hello Arnou,

 

I first broke the links to your referenced components and deleted/modified the parts as necessary. I suggest making a copy of your file before you start simplifying it. Unfortunately there isn't a better way to do this for the time being. In SimStudio there's some useful workflows like working models and defeaturing which are used to create simulation-ready, simplified versions of your model while preserving the original geometry in the same file. These features will be available in Fusion 360 in the future, so deleting and modifying your geometry is just a temporary workaround.

 

Jeremy



Jeremy Wiesner

Research Engineer, Fusion 360 Event Simulation
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Message 12 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

@jeremy.wiesner

 

I have been fiddling around and I have found it seems possible to supress bodies and components. I'm currently trying to remake the simulation on my own design with all the components/bodies that I don't need, supressed. 

 

I hope this will work correctly because making a copy is a time consuming workaround. Being able to adjust your model in the modelling workspace and quickly resolving would be very  nice! I will keep you posted if this works with supressing.

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Message 13 of 27

jeremy.wiesner
Alumni
Alumni

Hi Arnou,

 

You're right, the simplest approach is always going to be suppressing the unneeded components in your model from within the Simulation workspace. Where I ran into trouble with your model was that I only wanted a small subset of large components, which required me to break them up. You could always create the model being mindful of which parts you'll want to keep for simulation and break them into individual components. Again, sorry for the pain associated with these temporary workflows. This will be much, much smoother in the near future as we release more features for you.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how your simulation results come out with the new model. Keep us posted!



Jeremy Wiesner

Research Engineer, Fusion 360 Event Simulation
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Message 14 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

@jeremy.wiesner

 

Yes, I have adjusted my model so the supporting brackets are actually bodies, which i can isolate now! So I actually have the same model as you did now.
The solver is currently running to check if I'm getting the same results as you did, to make sure I'm doing things right ! 🙂

If this works out I will be adjusting my model to get some good results. I will defintly keep you posted!

Message 15 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

 

@jeremy.wiesner

 

I'm currently attempting to undertake some simulations, but due to the server outage, I'm unable to solve via the cloud. However I'm also unable to solve this locally. I keep getting this error as stated above. Any suggestions for that?

 

 

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Message 16 of 27

Andrew.Sartorelli
Alumni
Alumni

Hi @arnou-verfaillie,

 

Sorry about the outage with cloud solve, I know the team is hard at work trying to get everything squared away. Event Sim is only available as a cloud solve, so you will not be able to solve locally. Be sure to keep an eye on Keqing's post on the Fusion Outage for details on when things are back to normal.

 

Best Regards,

Andrew



Andrew Sartorelli - Autodesk GmbH
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Message 17 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

@Andrew.Sartorelli

 

Yes, this was for a static stress simulation for another part. I have found there was a small missing contact in my part, so it solved correctly now.

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Message 18 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

@jeremy.wiesner

 

Hello there

 

It took a while for me to reproduce the simulation by myself, due to server outages and some internal problems here.
Now however I have been succesfull on reproducing the right side of the side, but I'm unable to reproduce the left side. Every setting seems to be the same, contacts are made, they are seperated, however my door falls through the rollers...

Below is a screencast of what I mean + my file in attachment.

Any suggestions/ideas why this might happen?

Thanks in advance!

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Message 19 of 27

jeremy.wiesner
Alumni
Alumni

Hi @arnou-verfaillie,

 

It's great to see you were successful getting the model set up on your own! The way you set it up and disabled the components that weren't needed for the simulation is much more elegant than the approach I took to make a duplicate of the model and delete all the unwanted components/bodies. I reviewed your model and input and everything looks spot-on to me. I ran the simulation and the results look as expected. The attached Screencast provides an animation from the side view, which is showing the door sliding up the supports as it did before. Could you try solving the model again?

 



Jeremy Wiesner

Research Engineer, Fusion 360 Event Simulation
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Message 20 of 27

arnou-verfaillie
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Advocate

@jeremy.wiesner

 

Yes, that's for the right side. I was able to reproduce that one, but for some reason the left simulation ("links) was falling through the rollers.

I have now made a new model of the same stand, in which it is now possible to change the height of each leg independently, which was very hard in my old model.

As with good science, I tried to reproduce the old simulation again, with the supports on the same height. Now however, the door does not slide but the corner facing forwards bends away. The rest of the door seem to stay in its place... With everything on the stand in the same place/height/... How is this possible?

 

Untitled.png

 

This is getting very strange now? I'm confused as to why this is happening. I did everything like I should (at least I think): change materials, fix the supports and rollers, make contacts (check if everything is seperated), apply force (gravity), mesh and solve.
Why is this giving me different results now?


So to make things clear I've made 2 simulations: one for the right side rollers ("rechts") and one for the left side rollers ("Links") because there are 2 possible positions for the door (opening facing inwards and outwards). 

Share link: http://a360.co/2hQvbem

File in attachment.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Also I'm having this global contacts issue again for the left side simulation...

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