Cloud Frustration

[CarlM89]

I understand that the cloud is the future, but seriously, if you can't run your cloud reliably, you need to give us the option to have full functionality with local files. I just designed a subassembly and I can't insert it into another assembly untill it completes uploading. Your clould is being extremely slow on the uploads and I'm just sitting here twiddling my thumbs waiting for your cloud to work when I could be getting work done.

[innovatenate]

To follow up on our earlier discussion, I just wanted to make sure you have the link to post suggestions for enhancements in the Fusion 360 Ideastation.

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/ideas/v2/ideaexchangepage/blog-id/125

Thanks,

[donsmac]

I've had problems over the last couple days with constipated uploads. Sorry, stuck uploads. Somehow relates to this preference in the Perference Panel:

Unchecking it and restarting Fusion solved the problem yesterday. And today I had a problem with uploading so I decided to 'Check' that perference and restart Fusion, and that solved the problem. Hope that helps you. I also turned my WiFi on and off a couple times in the process.

I agree 1000% that fusion needs to have full functioning without the cloud. Wouldn't that be Great! would solve so many problems. 

[PhilProcarioJr]

Kevin schneik, Director of Product Management for Fusion 360, has stated that's never going to happen:

He did however change it to consideration status so Im not sure whats going to happen.

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-ideastation-request-a/please-support-quot-local-only-quot-f...

[matt.pooley]

Hi Carl,

We aren't aware of any systemic issues with our servers at the moment, so unfortunately I can't offer a quick resolution. If you can send your diagnostic log files to me at matt.pooley@autodesk.com I can investigate further and try to diagnose what you are seeing.

As Don mentions, he has had issues with uploads as well, so there is some scenario which is causing problems with our most recent release. At the moment we can't reproduce the problem so are trying to obtain as much data as possible.

Regards,

Matt Pooley

On Behalf of the Fusion Dev Team.

[donsmac]

Kevin must be just thinking out loud, Never say Never. I'm sure the light will seep through eventually. Especailly considering the reality of the situation.

I wonder if there is more than one person holding onto the belief that Fusion needs to be Cloud based only. That belief alone is what is causing most of the problems. There is no wisdom in it. Feels somewhat more of a power trip than anything else. All of us here are trying to move the program in positive direction that is satisfactory for all of us users. The Idea station is a big part of that. I have not seen any users advocating Fusion to be cloudbased. But rather hundreds of comments to the contrary. The cloud features need only be a user option, most people do not need this option so it is simple common sense to make it fully operational in an offline capacity like most every other program out there. Would save so many people problems. Time to get real. Someone needs to sit down with Kevin and have a good heart to heart talk with him. And anyone else who supports the idea of cloud based only. Fusion can be a great product and I believe it's worth making it great but it ought to great all along the way, not just at some future date way down the road. Listening to the people who use the program is a good place to start. I think Kevin will change his mind or his position if it is in fact his position and not someone else pushing it on him.

[O.Tan]

Well from how I look at it, it's more of a implementation issue since Fusion requires files to be uploaded first whereas they could make it run and slowly do a background upload, though there's probably some other stuffs has to be taken care of in order for this to work.

I do see the cloud benefits and has no problem using it but to those who do, are they willing to lose out on cloud based features (no cloud render, no collaboration, no version management, and your files will stuck in your computer as its not available on the cloud)?

[donsmac]

I see the best of both worlds is totally possible. I certainly can see the benefits of the cloud based features for those who want to use it. But I can easily imagine that Fusion could have a button that connects you to the cloud when the cloud is desired for collaboration, rendering, translation, etc. But I can easily see that it could run like any other program where you can save files locally create versions when you want, delete files etc, just like with any program. 

When the time comes when you want to collaborate, render, etc, you hit the cloud button and you are in cloud mode, you simply choose the files you want from you local drive to put on the cloud. And it all works the way it does now. 

So users are not loosing out on anything, they simply have a much better experience with the Program. The user has control, not the program.

[schneik-adsk · Accepted solution]

This is quite a bit more complicate that just adding desktop data

The short answer is...

Fusion 360 was envisioned from the start as cloud based.  Our team had worked on a desktop application called Inventor Fusion and we realized we wanted to build a ground breaking new 20-year vision. It was founded on connecting teams and design disciplines together in an integrated solution. There is much of that vision not available yet. It was a 20-year idea after all... but, there are real benefits that are there today. Most obvious is Fusion 360 desktop client data is available in the web and mobile clients and on other devices with versions that are managed automatically. This is already an advantage over desktop based tools.

There are other more subtly but important advantages.  Rename for example.  Renaming a SolidWorks part (without using special tools) will break any referencing assembly.  Moving a SolidWorks part will break any referencing assembly.  In Fusion 360 you can rename and move designs and any references will automatically know.  In SolidWorks every assembly always opens the latest version of the parts you have on disk.  Fusion 360 assembly references are version aware. This means when you roll back to an older version you will see that assembly exactly as that version was at that time in history including all of the child parts.  Fusion 360 data can be shared with others using a public share.  This share can allow others to self serve and download the file in the format they need.  Fusion 360 data has a built in activity feed that lets you see versions and activity. This allows others to comment on designs and for this activity to be stored as part of a project keeping a history of changes and decisions. You get all this today without having to purchase EPDM, purchase Box/Dropbox or have a vault and data admin.

Using cloud technology as our platform helps ensure Fusion 360 is always the same version across the community so you can share data with other users and not worry about forward or backwards compatibility (Apple app store approval for Mac app store version can lag unfortunately).  Fusion data is translated via cloud translation so that we are able to offer OS X users access to data that typically is not accessible on a MAC.

Other advantages over desktop tools is the ability for remote services to work on your data asynchronously as you work or sleep. Today renderings can be offloaded to be rendered using a cloud based compute grid for example.

Let's look at some of the benefits that we could deliver in the future that would not be possible with desktop based data.  There will be additional clients that you can use to edit and create data. New clients like zero-browser clients and mobile clients that have access to your projects without any install. This will give you and your teams the ultimate flexibility to access and edit your data.

More services will be able to act on your benefit. Cloud grid computing will enable simulation studies, multi-variable design optimization and generative design tools. It will enable you to propagate change and have services update assemblies, drawings toolpaths and report on success or failure freeing designers to spend more time designing. It enables configurable parts to be deployed in engineer to order tools. It will enable 3rd parties to create new vertical solutions that can connect and enrich your projects no matter the device or your location.

Branch and merge of assemblies is built into the underlying data services for Fusion 360 and will allow individuals or teams to better manage change and explore design ideas. Branching and merging of design data is a nightmare to try and emulate on a desktop with folders and CAD file names. These are only some of the benefits that we think using the cloud as our platform will enable for you.

I think we have have been up front that Fusion 360 is cloud based.  We do not promote it as a desktop design app and we would not want to mislead anyone that it is. I know that requests to make Fusion 360 a desktop app comes from an appreciation of how the design tool works and from a lack of appreciation of how the cloud service might benefit you.  The benefit of cloud as a platform will take time to realize its' full potential. We are committed to take the time to listen to feedback from the community on that future direction and deliver on it, but, the feedback has to fit into the guardrails of the underlying product vision and values.  Please don't misunderstand me. Resistance to ideas to "go desktop data" is not because of a disdain for you or ignorance of your desires. We have core values for what Fusion 360 can be and tying ourselves to the problems and solutions that were right for the last 20 years will constrain us trying to solve the challenges of the next 20 years.

I hope some of what we offer above and beyond desktop tools today is of value to you. I also hope what we will be able to offer in the future is of even more value to you. If it is not, then Fusion 360 might not be the right tool for you. That's O.K.  We want to help people design and make their ideas real.  There are other tools that might be a better fit and we can help point you in those directions. Now you may say that we could do all this on the desktop or that we should "Just do both." I hope some of the complexity of the capability above shows that this just has not been possible with local and file based data.  Current tools have been trying to solve these problems for the last 20+ years and have not been able to do so. You might be able to get some of the above benefits with large very expensive and complex IT infrastructure but nowhere will you find all this available to hobbyist and students for free and to commercial customers for $40 to $100 per month.

... and this was the short answer 🙂

[O.Tan]

I don't think it'll be that simple. As to upload all the necessary Fusion files will take time and because of this "take time" process, users will likely not bothered to use the collaboration tool at all.

Fusion versioning is handled by A360 which is cloud based so if no cloud, no versioning. Locally, users will still be able to manage their own file versions but it'll be dependent on the user to manage it.

Also once the user uploads for collaboration, what then after they're done collaborating? Bring the files back offline?

[donsmac]

My suggestion to have it work both ways would go something more like this: The user wants to start a design, he knows from the outset whether or not it's going to be a job where he will require the cloud services. If it is simply a job where he is does not need the cloud functionality he saves his files locally and he's fine with that. His versions is his own responsibility, he takes care of that.

If it is job where he knows it will involve the cloud sevices (as described by Kevin above, I won't repeat it) then he uses the cloud from the start or uploads a file that he has already started as a local project then that file becomes part of the cloud system. 

Any program can create a new version without having to be connected to an external system, simply using 'save as' and giving it a a new file name. 

When the user finishes their collaboration they could easily leave it in the cloud or 'save as' to their local drive. They do not need to save tons of versions, just one file if they wanted to.

Working locally does not require new versions with every save. No program does that except Fusion. 

I am simply saying that if a project is more complicated than saving a single file locally then use the cloud, If the user does not require interconnected files or collaboration  or cloud functionality, then they ought to have the option to work locally. I am certainly not saying that Fusion's cloud capability be implemented locally. 

And to @schneik-adsk I do not appreciate your comment that goes something like: if you don't like it we'll show you the door. Not nice. Although you said it in a much more subtle way. 

[PhilProcarioJr]

I personally have no issue with anything you just said, there are a lot of things about your cloud side of the software I like all of which you have just pointed out, but there is the biggest possibly the only real point I want to make. I do work for the military, I just talked to them yesterday and I can't use an app for work for them that is cloud based, period. Its not as simple as filling out some forms, there are real legalities to it. I for one am not asking you to stop your vision of a cloud based system, i'm asking you allow us to have which ever projects we need offline only so we are not turning away work or investing in one of your competitors software. I hope you can understand that. Either way Kevin thanks for taking the time to explain why you guys feel the way you do.

[HughesTooling]

You can export and import f3d files now, the only drawbacks I see at the moment are, no external linked parts and I don't think you can make a 2d drawing without saving to the cloud. It's easy enough to work around no external parts so if you could make 2d drawings offline most project for a small business could be done offline. The opening and saving of local f3d files needs a bit of work as well.

[donsmac]

Thanks Mark, I was just thinking that myself just before seeing your post. I've spent the last couple days of my time dealing with files not uploading and working with Matt from Fusion to resolve this. Thought we had it solved but no. The other day you pointed out that  I could open a local f3d file as a new design, I hadn't thought till now that that could be a good alternative or work around for me. I don't need drawings or external parts so I could simply work and export the f3d and import it to open the file. Great idea.

Does clearing the cache get rid of the stuff that is about to upload if and when you go into online mode? 

Off to experiment.

[HughesTooling]

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@donsmac wrote:

Does clearing the cache get rid of the stuff that is about to upload if and when you go into online mode? 

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I seem to remember clearing the cache was only recommended as a last resort when syncing had really gone wrong so I'm not sure what it does. Link to one line in Help quote from help "Clear user cache data option removes locally stored data without needing to uninstall Fusion 360."

[Oceanconcepts]

Kevin makes the point quite clearly, I think, that with Fusion Autodesk is working to build a tool for the future and for future ways of working. That requires some basic architectural differences in the way the software is structured, compared to the desktop apps we are all used to. Fusion is a cloud based tool for many very good reasons, lots of them having to do with what distributed computing resources will enable in the future. 

Asking that the entirety of Fusion’s capabilities (apart from collaboration or things that obviously today require the cloud) be available as a standalone desktop application isn’t really reasonable- it’s asking essentially for much of another program to be built alongside Fusion, with an alternative structure- and alternative troubleshooting, bugs, system compatibility issues, file translation issues, stability issues… 

But cloud computing is not 100% there yet, not everyone has great internet service, and it IS reasonable to request that specific functionality be accessible offline. And the Fusion team has been receptive to doing this. Offline capability of any sort didn’t exist early on, now it is possible to do real work while offline. Files can be opened locally, that didn’t used to be possible. The record of response to specific requests is very good, considering the complexity of a project like this, and that many requests are for "something that works the way I'm used to". That doesn’t mean everything will be possible, but clearly there is a lot of effort made to respond to what people want, within the boundaries of the larger vision. 

There have been many threads about the issue of customers who won’t allow the use of cloud based applications. The attitude kind of misses the point of what real security is about, but that doesn’t help if your customer is adamant- or the military. I’m old enough to have been working (and not that young) during the transition from paper drawings- which could be locked up- to computers, and in may ways I think the transition to distributed processing (a term more descriptive than “cloud”- which many people hear just as “my data is stored somewhere else”) is almost as profound a change. In some ways more profound. Fusion is fundamentally a cloud based application, with some offline capability. Increasingly, customers who won’t accept the use of cloud based applications are not going to be able to use the most advanced tools. The kinds of possibilities that the future holds just won’t be possible on a desktop. .

Fusion, as Kevin points out, has a particular vision, reaching out some distance into the future. I happen to think it is a compelling vision, and I put up with some rough edges- mostly happily, sometimes less so. But Fusion isn’t all things to everyone, there are some things that can’t or won’t happen, and for some people it may not be the right choice, or not right as of now. It’s not impolite to be clear about that. 

[O.Tan]

You've made lots of good points and if I may add, with the 20 year vision, and looking at how things are with the industry. It seems just as the transition from printed documents to e-documents, eventually a lot of things are going to be cloud based (stored on the internet) cause of 1 word, convenience.

Well as long as Fusion team has a clear vision on things and are willing to shove some ideas aside as it doesn't fit their 20 year vision, I'm fine with it as AD has been very open with Fusion development process and with IdeaStation, lots of ideas coming in, some which is not part of the vision, therefore it's important to have a clear goal on what the software is trying to accomplish. I've seen my fair share of products where once they open up to user/customer inputs, the product went downhill, not because opening up is a bad idea, but more cause they (developer) loses focus on what they need the product to be and try to fulfil every customer request/idea.

[donsmac]

Thanks Ron and Kevin.  I now have a clearer picture of all of this and so concede my previous position, so I am in support of what you guys are doing. It's really now a matter of getting the rough edges worked out as Ron says. I 'm currently working closely with Matt Pooley in trying to determine the problems with files not uploading and autosaving correctly.

Thanks again for your inputs. I'm sure it will help everyone understand the situation more clearly. 

[Anonymous]

Contrary to your statements about Solidworks. It very affectively manages file name changes, and does not lose any referencing.

Giving local file saving access only makes sense, and does not have to affect cloud-based function. It can allow us to quickly open and use files (the only reason I have time to post on the forum is because I'm sitting here waiting for my parts to download/open...it is very frustrating).

I have tried the option of exporting a file and saving it on my computer as an .f3d file, which works, but when reopening it the only option is to open it as a new design, with an untitled name, and virtually as a new part. This is really frustrating, as I often work on designs without having internet access. I would be fine with the cloud if it worked quietly in the background to sync my projects and files with the cloud, and used whatever cloud computing available when I'm online, but limiting function and useability while offline may not work for me.

[Anonymous]

I too work on very sensitive information, and simply cannot work on some projects having this cloud based. I spoke an autodesk representative over the phone about my concerns, and he assured me that the data is safe, and even autodesk doesn't have access to designs.

This does not change the fact that the governement will not allow it, with stiff penalities associated with it.