[OPEN] Plastic Parts Discussion

TimeraAutodesk
Community Manager

[OPEN] Plastic Parts Discussion

TimeraAutodesk
Community Manager
Community Manager
We understand there is some key functionality missing from Fusion with regards to plastic part
features and in particular with plastic boss creation. After speaking to many customers, we understand a lot of people when creating these types of features tend to do things differently. Some users have tended to create boss’s from scratch and have avoided using in built tools in the CAD they were using to do these operations, other users
have used these toolsets but have then adjusted the features once created due to draft, fillets or
chamfer etc...
 
We want to start understanding what the community would like to see in Fusion for plastic boss creation and how they would like to interact with such feature sets.
 
- How automated would you like boss creation to be?
- How would you like to interact with boss creation?
- How would you like to place the boss?
- Do you currently have a boss library you use?
- If this toolset existed in Fusion, how often would you be using it?
 
We understand from our community and own assumptions that a boss tool is the most valuable
plastic part feature and it would add a lot of value to design workflows. We also want to
understand what other plastic part features would you like to see within Fusion such as:
 
- Lip and Grove
- Snap fit
- Vent
- Indent
 
We are also looking for partners to be involved in the early phases of these feature sets, so if
you would like to share more information on how you achieve this now and want to be involved
in the early phases feel free to reach out directly to harv.saund@autodesk.com
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TimeraAutodesk
Community Manager
Community Manager
 
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I_Forge_KC
Advisor
Advisor

Definitely looking for plastic features. I cut my teeth on the Inventor plastic parts, but I have always felt like there could be better ways. Just creating parametric features (e.g. iFeatures from Inventor) is a fine method, but it's not real automation - it's just a pre-made model. That's where we are today, even in Fusion.

 

Here are some thoughts, though:

 

Boss - It would be really helpful to be able to specify the fastener type and size to auto-size the feature. For example, I could say that I want to insert a thread forming M5 screw and then the boss tool would auto-size the wall thickness, cavity size, etc. to match the fastener specified. Even better, do the same for threaded inserts. It would be nice to say that a boss is just a rest also (no fastener). In a perfect world, there would also be a joint origin populuated here that correlates to the fastener that goes inside or the mating boss that rests there. Lastly, it would be great if there was a material suitability warning about using thread-cutting vs thread-forming screws to avoid hoop stress failures.

 

Snap Fit - The parametric input form that Inventor uses would be ok here. It would be nice to get a quick sanity check on thicknesses, though. Perhaps the dialog box could provide insights such as warnings about being too thick/thin, not enough preload, etc. You could even go so far as to be load based like the design accelerator in Inventor where the performance is the driving factor, not strictly the dimensional inputs (e.g. this snap fit needs to have a holding force of xxx lbs)

 

Lips/Grooves - It would be super nice if this included gasket parameters as an option!

 

 

Lastly...

Make plastic a model type like sheetmetal. Enable rules enforcement like wall thickness, fillet radii, and draft. Enable surface features/treatments that further enforce rules (e.g. highly textured surfaces need more draft).


K. Cornett
Generative Design Consultant / Trainer

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JamesCAD9
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I would love to see this. I'd like @I_Forge_KC 's comment if I saw the option. Designing plastic parts is a huge part of my workflow. A force-based snap feature generator would be possibly the biggest time-saver in the suggestions, but they are all good. I was going to write much of the same thing but he covered most of it. Two more suggestions though: One would be to add features to a designated "slide group" in the draft analysis tool. You could select a set of faces and a vector to see how a slide will work out, rather than just selecting a body. Maybe save it as some sort of selection set within the draft analysis tool. Also, heat stake and ultrasonic welding bosses would be awesome.

 

"Lastly...

Make plastic a model type like sheetmetal. Enable rules enforcement like wall thickness, fillet radii, and draft. Enable surface features/treatments that further enforce rules (e.g. highly textured surfaces need more draft)."

Yes. Just yes. I spend way to much time checking models for manufacturability.

 

One last thing, handy but not that important, would be standard SPI textures in the rendering workspace.

 

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pd700
Advocate
Advocate

It is good to see the increased focus on plastic part design.  

 

Boss guidelines
It is a good suggestion in the above posts to include boss creation based on material guidelines similar to sheet metal and to include heat and ultrasonic stakes.   I think it would be good to include the ability to allow modifications to parameters in the dialog box with warning notification when guidelines are not met. Adding a boss gusset option would also be useful. Bosses should be able to created with both part geometry as well as reference geometry such as planes and axis . 

 

Lip
Automation dialog box should  allow modification or manual creation through a sketch. The automated option should include appearance gap (shadow gap) in lip creation which is commonly used.


Lip should follow a selected trajectory or spline around the part and this is especially important for not planar parts commonly used in organic shapes. Lip should also accommodate split parting line parts or at least allow manual creation where the automation is not possible.

 

Snap fit
Selectable option type of snap fit, which allow modification or manual creation in a dialog box. Allow selection of the snap-fit snap fit either one-time permanent assembly or temporary with multiple insertions and removals. I think a good suggestion in the above post for a approximate check for pullout force , insertion force and stress. It might be a good idea to include a warning if the snap there is a large deflection resulting in non-linear stress or constant deflection as the apparent modulus calculation would be needed .  This would need followup in Simulation.

 

Design of mating part with the snap-fit could be done with a Boolean cut operation at the intersection of the two component bodies with input on  clearance, as posted in Idea Station just recently.

 

 

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MoshiurRashid
Advisor
Advisor

Improvement of side core creation function would be great!

Moshiur Rashid
Autodesk Certified Instructor
ACP | CSWE
https://www.autodesk.com/expert-elite/overview

LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK

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JulianGroeli
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Edit: Removed my comments about need for parting line draft and re-posted to the other thread about that..

 

- Maybe there could be some kind of unifying framework behind this that could let you just specify which faces are specify which faces are core/cavity, sliders, lifters, etc?

- Maybe there could be tools to help you out with parting line analysis to check for vertical / insufficient draft

 

 

Julian Groeli
Owner
2020 Design
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JulianGroeli
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Ran out of time to edit my previous post:

 

- I love the idea of snap fit design helpers. The trouble is that there is a LOT of variety and flavors out there, so any tool that's made for this would need a way to be customized. 

 

- It's important to think about steel conditions when designing these kinds of features so if there was a way to actually show what the tool looks like and flip back and forth that would be huge. [ I know - many veteran plastics designers have trained themselves to "see the tool" by mentally inverting the part, but that's really hard for most people, and should be doable for a CAD system.

 

Other than that

- Maybe there could be some kind of unifying framework behind this that could let you just specify which faces are specify which faces are core/cavity, sliders, lifters, etc?

- Maybe there could be tools to help you out with parting line analysis to check for vertical / insufficient draft

 

 

Julian Groeli
Owner
2020 Design
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stiller.design
Collaborator
Collaborator

I would love to see the DRAFT tool to be given more options, such as parting neutral for a SURFACE reference.

 

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ot_dsgn
Contributor
Contributor

For Lip and Grove I sometimes use the 'Pipe'-Tool if applicable, which works surprisingly well. It would just be great to have more control over the profile geometry. Height and width would do it for the start.

 

What I am missing most is a wall thickness analysis in the inspect section, which shouldn't be too difficult to embed. Just to validate constant wall thickness and prevent sinks.

 

Also setting an offset, a tolearance basically, when substracting bodies / componants would be awesome.

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doutlaw
Explorer
Explorer

Most important help is after the design getting feed back on where to place the gate . Many novice users do not understand the flow of plastic and how the gate location impacts all the choices in the design . Perhaps this may be a bit much for 360 programs but I thought it might be worth mentioning . I taught the fundamentals of plastic part design as a service to our customers who were always wanting to know why something failed . It is not too hard to explain as there are only about 7 or 8 things that typically happened,

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gonzoribbons
Explorer
Explorer

The ability to add additional tolerance to the 'add thread' tool. Standard thread modelling is too tight for most 3D printers, and selecting faces then push-pull is not an ideal, or optimised operation. This ability for making threaded plastic parts for FFF would be fantastic, and speed up the process no-end, and be easier to set a standard part tolerance tuned for your particular 3D printer.

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MAS.DPL
Advocate
Advocate

As Others have said Plastic, moulded, forged and generally 'Tooled' parts are a huge area of manufacture and deserve their own area as sheet metals.   

 

Also All help and improvements with the basic and new  features is welcome:

- shelling / thickening - eg showing which tiny area is halting the operation. 

- applying a given radii and if not working , again showing which tiny area is halting the operation. 

- More Radii tools eg Elliptical radii, better control of variable radii, and curvature continuous radii 

  (radii and drafts are VITAL for all moulding operation). 

- Mould flow analysis

- Reinforced plastic FEA (with flow aligned fibre).

-easier ways to switch problem surfaces to T-Splines AND back, for subtle editing. 

- any tools to get easier curvature continuous faces (along with accuracy AND parametrics) -  A-Class surfaces too  much of an 'ask' this sided of Alias 🙂 

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nicolas.beaudoin_MI
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I believe a thickness analysis tool, based on the largest sphere approach, would be very beneficial to predict sink marks and voids, the sort of issues found underneath ribs and bosses. A tool that could remove the excess material would be an innovation I believe.

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doutlaw
Explorer
Explorer

Well that may be part of it .. but the real deal is to understand that plastic in injection molding is compressible and can be packed closer to the gate area thats location that may be picked randomly and normally should be the  thickest wall section . The further you get away from the gate the less you can pack out the sinks . The location of ribs that intersect wall sections make the wall thinker at that point . So that is a natural place for sink to occur . In addition the location of water lines also play into how long the wall section can be packed out . So it’s a lot of interdependent variables that can make a difference 

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nicolas.beaudoin_MI
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Good day. I have tested the Plastic extension and I am fairly satisfied with the new utilities. I believe however that there are a few important utilities missing :

  • calculation of the projected area along the demolding direction
  • 3D parting line generator

I believe everything is there to enable these quality of life functions for injection molding.

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nicolas.beaudoin_MI
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Glad to see that the Plastic Extension brings about the thickness analysis tool.
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stiller.design
Collaborator
Collaborator

when using the Product design extension I always get this weired and freaking annoying bug , where when I do thin extrusion and click on the sketch the tab will change to normal extrusion, UNLESS I select a preset....ARRRRGHHHH

same freakin bug with the draft

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mac_ito
Collaborator
Collaborator

Hello, sorry to post this here but at the time it was you Timera who had this subject and it has since been impossible to answer it. What is the news report about this post? This possibility was requested in 2016 when will it finally be implemented??

 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-ideastation-archived/allow-joints-to-constrain-animations/... 

 

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