Copy-Paste works but Copy-Paste NEW does not

[RogerInHawaii]

I've created a component and have successfully used the Pattern tool to make multiple copies of it. No errors arise from that. I can also do a simple Copy of the component and then a Paste and that also works. In both cases it's making a "linked" copy that's implicitly associated with the original that a copy had been made of.

However, if I do a Copy and then a Paste NEW, I do get a duplicate of the original that's not linked to the original, but it shows a whole slew of warnings for the copy. WHY? If the original has no errors or warnings, why would an exact copy show errors or warnings?

In this picture the blue panels are simple copies (i.e. linked to the original) while the purple panel is the one that I did a Copy NEW on, and it shows all those yellow warnings, the first of which is explained in the lower right corner of the image as being "Pattern source lost".

What do I have to do to fix that and get Copy NEW to work just as well as Copy?

[mavigogun]

Did you resolve all the Warnings in your Timeline indicated in your previous post before these most recent Warnings appeared?    As you may recall, you were cautioned about dire consequences of proceeding without first addressing those.

As always, diagnosing the problem is greatly aided by examining the design- File>Export>Save local>and Attach the design in your reply  here.

[RogerInHawaii]

I removed everything from the project that was causing any warnings or errors, back to just the very first "shingle" of the Mercury Space Capsule. I've attached the project to this message. It shows JUST that single component, named "ConeShingleUpperBasic C1:2". The sketch you see is the general overall sketch. The main axis around which all the panels are positioned is the dashed vertical line.



If you select that shingle and do a copy of it, then activate the overall project and select "Paste New", you'll get a dialog to position the copy. Select the axis and specify 60 degrees rotation. When you hit OK you'll get the entire new copy of the existing panel (NOT linked to the one it was copied from). And you'll get a whole slew of warnings. If you look at the timeline you'll see that the newly copied shingle has a slew of warnings but the original shingle has none.

This just doesn't make sense to me. If the original has no warnings and the copy is indeed a complete copy of the original, how can the new one have warnings while the original has none? It seems like something isn't get copied over to the copy.

And, please be assured, I am incredibly grateful for your help.

[jeff_strater · Accepted solution]

@RogerInHawaii - I can explain what is going on here.  The base sketch in this component ("Basic Cross Section") is owned by the component "ConeShingleUpperBasic C1".  However, that sketch projects geometry from the very first sketch in the design ("Overall Dimensions").  This sketch is owned by the root component of the entire design.  What Paste New does is to extract just the features owned by the copied component, and paste them into a new component.  This is similar to what Save Copy As does.  However, that "Overall Dimensions" sketch is not owned by that copied component.  So, the Paste New treats any references outside of the selected component as unresolved.  It's just the way that Paste New works.  

[RogerInHawaii]

Thank you so very much for identifying the issue. But, ... YIKES!

I guess that I had figured that if the "basic" dimensions were provided in a top-level component (not a component inside another component) then it would be kind of "globally accessible", kind of the way variables can be globally accessible in a computer program. [ I'm a retied software engineer. ]

Is there a way to identify which sketches, and which parts of sketches, actually reference that base sketch of the "Basic Cross Section", so that I can get in there and fixes those references?

If I were to Copy/Paste (not Capy-PasteNew) that "Basic Cross Section" sketch into the Shingle component would that properly make its various lines and points reference-able in the Shingle component, and also make it so any changes to the original Basic Cross Section would be reflected in that copied one down in the Shingle component?

[TrippyLighting]

This is a tricky situation!

The culprit are the two subsequent pattern operations in the timeline.

With the first one you are patterning a component. A component pattern works similar to a copy/paste operation in that it creates an instance of a component. All patterned instances are referencing the exact same data set.

With the second operation you are patterning the body in that component. That works fine.

However, when you then create an independent copy of that component by using a the Copy/set-new command Fusion 360 stumbles. 

If you first pattern the body in the component and then pattern the component, so in essence switch these two operations in the timeline, then a subsequent copy/paste-new operation does not create the same errors in the timeline.

I cannot say for sure this is a bug, but is certainly needs some explanation as to why exactly this happens.

@ryan.bales and @jeff_strater might be able to help with that.

Edit : It was late last night and I left the thread up o look at it in the morning. The folks on the west coast are 3 hours behind and I should've refreshed the thread before writing my post. Anyhow, I find I cannot consolidate Jeff's explanation with my findings.

[RogerInHawaii]

TrippyLighting, If that's true then .. well ... yikes.

One of the amazing and incredibly useful powers of the Pattern tool, which is basically a repetitive Copy/Paste where all such copies reference the same underlying data set, is that changes can be made to any one of them after the Pattern operation and those changes get reflected in ALL of the copies.

And it's also perfectly valid and useful to do a Copy/PasteNew from any one of those copies in order to get a totally independent copy, often so that you can then make unique changes to that NEW-ly pasted copy that then only apply to that particular copy.

But now (I think) you're saying that if I do exactly that sequence, namely...

1. Create a component.
2. Pattern that component to create multiple linked (common dataset) copies.
3. Make a modification to (any one of) those components that includes a pattern (of bodies) within the component.
4. Make a Copy/PasteNEW of any one of those components to create an independent copy of the component..
And Fusion 360 FAILS somehow in that PasteNEW.

And I THINK that what you're saying is that I need to assure that every single modification or addition that I might need to make (or subsequently realize I need to make) has to be done BEFORE I make the multiple Copy/Paste copies. And that if I do that THEN I can subsequently make a Copy/PasteNEW component without the errors.

Do I understand that correctly?

Frankly, that seems very, very weird. If you're always referencing the exact same underlying dataset when modifying any one of the multiple copies of a Patterned component, how is that any different than modifying the original component PRIOR to the Pattern operation? How does a subsequent Copy/PasteNEW even know that it's operating on a Patterned component as opposed to a "master" component that hasn't yet been Patterned, and why would the Copy/PasteNEW behave any differently in those two situations?

Yup. I'm confused.

[TrippyLighting]

I played around with this some more and @jeff_strater is correct.

I observed some other odd behavior when experimenting with this file and mistakened that for the root cause. Sorry for the confusion.

[RogerInHawaii]

Jeff,

Well, I got it working but not after a bunch of weird things.

I reduced everything to just the one "shingle" that has no warnings. I then made a Copy/PasteNEW of that shingle, so now I had two independent shingles. The new COPY had all the warnings with it again (kind of expected, since I hadn't done anything to the original as yet). I selected a couple of the warnings in the timeline for the SECOND shingle and did an Edit Feature on each, which simply consisted of making sure that the axis of rotation for the Feature was the actual axis of the drawing (NOT a line in the drawing). I was pleasantly surprised to find that doing so actually removed the particular warnings for that second shingle, indicating that you were correct about them somehow losing connection to the other sketch in that different Component.

So, I went back to the original shingle and also selected those same Features in IT's timeline and did the same "Edit" to them (assuring that the axis was the actual axis of the drawing), even though those Features did not actually have any warning messages for them.

I then got rid (via the timeline) of the SECOND shingle, i.e. the Copy/PasteNEW one, and then once again did a Copy/PasteNEW of the original to again create that second, independent shingle, fully expecting those particular warnings do be gone from those Features that I had edited in the original shingle and MADE ABSOLUTELY SURE were referencing the proper axis. BUT! Lo and behold, those same warnings were appearing in the newly created second shingle. It's as if it remembers the warning even though they should no longer exist.

SO, ... I spent a whole lot of time on that SECOND shingle and edited each and every Feature that had a warning on it, making sure that the axis were correctly specified as the sketch axis, not simply a line in any sketch (and definitely not a line in that other sketch in that other Component). By doing so I was able to get rid of all the warning in the SECOND shingle.

I then tried doing a Copy/PasteNEW using that SECOND (cleaned up) shingle as the thing being copied to create a new, independent copy of that Second shingle. AND IT WORKED! No warnings, no hits, no runs, no errors!! I even tried doing a Pattern from that Second shingle and all of the copies look fine.

SO, .. I DELETED the ORIGINAL shingle and now finally have a good "Master" shingle (that second shingle) that I should be able to proceed with, making pattern type copies and PasteNEW type copies.

But. man, it was so weird having to go through this. I still can't figure out why that first one caused so many problems, and then why, having cleaned out all the warnings on the copied one, IT can now be used for copying without warnings.