A path forward for the Make license, a step up for Standard...

[matt.berggren]

Hi All --

We’re excited today to announce that the forthcoming release of EAGLE will have an expanded Standard Edition with more capabilities at a lower cost than ever before, and a change to network connectivity requirements for the Freeware version of EAGLE!

Firstly, the all-new Standard Edition will bump up the layer count to 4 signal layers (to enable those of you interested in building wireless, etc.) from the previous 2 layer limitation.  This gives users of the previous Make and Make Professional licenses a path forward, for only $100/year or $15/month!  What’s more, this is a commercial license, so unlike previous licenses, this is available for use in anything you might hope to take to market.

How does this compare to the $169 Make and $269 Make Pro licenses from Cadsoft?

Though the $169 Make license from Cadsoft was capable of 6 layers, this was distinctly non-commercial.  Thus this license could only be used for hobby projects and were you interested in commercializing your creation, you would be required to purchase a commercial equivalent.  

The $269 Make Pro license was a 4 layer, annual license and though it was a commercial license; the Make Pro license required it be renewed each year, under a subscription model.  If the product was not renewed, you would roll over to the Freeware license and layer restrictions would apply.

The not-so-Standard, “Standard” Edition

The Standard edition from Autodesk will now provide the equivalent capability of Cadsoft’s ‘Make Pro’ license, for more than 2.5x off the Cadsoft price.  Again, this is a commercial license which means you’re safe using this for your next crowdfunding campaign, or even business applications in the workplace.  

When will this be available?

Because we’ve moved away from big, monolithic releases with the move to subscription, you can buy the standard edition today and expect that within the next several weeks, the new capabilities will show up as an update in the software.  So just to be clear: if you purchase Standard today, you are guaranteed access to the additional layer count with the next release of EAGLE, scheduled just a few short weeks away!

Network Changes to the Freeware Version

As mentioned on the EAGLE user forums, the forthcoming release of EAGLE will include a small but welcome tweak for many of you to the network requirement which affects the Freeware software.  In the forthcoming release, a network connection will be required the first time you launch the freeware software.  Beyond this point, you are not required to maintain a network connection, except when updating the Freeware tools.  

Stated another way, you will only be required to login when you install the Freeware software, and each time you install a subsequent update / upgrade.  

How will paid licenses operate?

As discussed in myriad other threads, a paid license will require you login once every 14 days.  If you extend beyond 14 days, unlicensed, you can still open the software, produce output files, print, etc. however you won’t be able to modify the content of a multi-layer file without logging in first to retrieve either your Standard or Premium license entitlement.  

The software will automatically roll over to freeware and you will be able to use the free license however you will not be able to author new content beyond the scope of the freeware license without retrieving your license from the server.

Again, this all goes into effect in the next version which will be released in the next few weeks.  

We’re super excited about what these changes mean to the community and you can expect this release tempo to continue as we make the move from slow, monolithic release timelines, toward something of value coming regularly along the subscription path.

Best regards,

Matt Berggren - Autodesk

EAGLE, Tinkercad, Fusion

[matt.berggren]

How often do you use 6 layers?  Looking at your boards on OSHPark, they almost all appear to be 2 layers and well within the area constraints?

Best regards,

Matt

[synfinatic]

I'll be honest.  It's far less about the layers and far more about the price increase.   4 layers is fine (so far I've kept my designs to 2 layers due to cost/complexity)- I don't expect I'll ever need 6.  Honestly, I'm already running into the limits of the 160x100 PCB size limit on Eagle 7 Maker and have had to scale back/abandon some ideas.  Actually, my next project probably can't fit on a single 160x100 PCB.  So either I have to go to a stacked PCB design or switch to KiCad.

But it's more then just the expense- it's making a choice[*].  Look at my first post in this thread where I do the math comparing my current Maker license vs the new licensing scheme and explain why the "flexibility" as you put it only ends up making it harder for me to part with my money because it's unclear which is more cost effective due to my usage pattern (or lack thereof).  When you're working on projects on your free time, you tend to spread the work over longer periods, sometimes with significant gaps.  If I told you I was going to use Eagle in 8 of the next 12 months, I'd be lying- I really have no clue.  It could be 8.  It could be 3.  It could be 12 if my job and other hobbies/projects don't get in the way (highly unlikely).  I'm just not like companies which can plan these things out or can use past experience to estimate the future.  

Your pricing model seems designed to intentionally punish people who are intermittent users due to the fact paying monthly is significantly more expensive.  I'm sure you prefer the more positive "rewarding loyal customers" perspective.   I actually think it's cool in theory that people can do month-to-month with no commitment and save money, just in practice the pricing model doesn't really support that.

Basically, you don't have a "Maker" license option.  You have two "commercial" options and a free trial version.  You even basically admit that in your original post because you only compare the new licensing pricing with the old "Maker Pro" which was a commercial option.  

Hope that helps clarify things.

* I find it ironic that clearly you tried to simplify things by reducing the choices to only two paid options from the ala-carte model that CadSoft had.  But in reality, choosing what to buy based on features is far easier to decide then on how often you'll use something if your usage isn't consistent.

[synfinatic]

One other concern I have Matt:

How stable will the subscription pricing be?  Obviously you can't promise the price will never increase (and forgive me if I don't believe you if you do), so unless I lock in a long term subscription (by paying up front), you might raise the pricing once you have me "locked in" to Eagle 8 with the new file formats.  Since I don't own anything at that point, I'm either stuck paying more $$$ or redoing my work in another product.  Sure I'll be able to view them with the free version, but not make meaningful edits/improvements.  Right now, I'm very happy my v7 license is perpetual because I'm not having this problem right now.  

Realize that many of my projects are never "done". Many of my projects see nearly an endless list of improvements over time (years).  Either adding features or making it smaller or fixing bugs.  OshPark is cheap enough where I don't feel I need to get it perfect before having a board built; which is good because I'm not a professional so it's far easier to iterate.  I have two projects which have seen 8 different board versions sent to OshPark- one I first started in Feb 2013, the other in Sep 2014.  I plan to make a major change to both of these boards to either add major features or significantly reduce COGS (I'd like to teach a class for my local astronomy club on how to build their own digital setting circles for their own telescopes).  Point is that this is a real concern of mine, not a hypothetical.  Right now, both of these changes are pretty big so starting over from scratch isn't that big of a deal.  Seems like one or both of them would be good candidates for trying out something else.

That said, my smaller projects which see only small changes I'll probably just say with Eagle 7- at least until I become competent enough in the new software to easily and quickly redo them.  At some point in time, I understand that Eagle 7 just won't be compatible with my hardware/OS.

For that reason alone, as someone who is price sensitive, upgrading to v8 seems very dangerous/risky.  Actually, it seems to me the longer I wait to migrate to something else, the worse off I am.  I mean, sooner or later I'll probably outgrow my existing v7 Maker license.  With the current AutoDesk Eagle licensing scheme I'd have to make a big jump from the $100/year tier to the $500/year tier if I need a slightly larger board.  Honestly, I can't ever see me paying that as long as I'm just doing this as a hobby.

Thanks for listening,

Aaron

[jorge_garcia2]

Hi synfinatic,

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@synfinatic wrote:

One other concern I have Matt:

How stable will the subscription pricing be?  Obviously you can't promise the price will never increase (and forgive me if I don't believe you if you do),

JG: Seems like its not a good question to ask, if you can't believe the answer you are going to be given. In this regard, I'm sure Matt will answer so I don't want to step on his toes. I would encourage you to look at how other products in Autodesk Portfolio have been priced under subscription and how they have changed over time. If you look at the LT suite of tools the pricing is very reasonable for good functionality. Additionally, if you look at the Autodesk corporate mission (http://www.autodesk.com/future-of-making-things) you'll see that one of the goals is to democratize design, I don't think Autodesk is interested in being used by only a select few, rather Autodesk wants their products to be used by everyone so their pricing is going to be sensitive to that. That's all the assurance I can provide, I'll get out of Matt's way now.

Realize that many of my projects are never "done". Many of my projects see nearly an endless list of improvements over time (years).  Either adding features or making it smaller or fixing bugs.  OshPark is cheap enough where I don't feel I need to get it perfect before having a board built; which is good because I'm not a professional so it's far easier to iterate.  I have two projects which have seen 8 different board versions sent to OshPark- one I first started in Feb 2013, the other in Sep 2014.  I plan to make a major change to both of these boards to either add major features or significantly reduce COGS (I'd like to teach a class for my local astronomy club on how to build their own digital setting circles for their own telescopes).

JG: This sounds like a really cool project, astronomy is a fascinating subject, wish I had some spare time to devote to it.

That said, my smaller projects which see only small changes I'll probably just say with Eagle 7- at least until I become competent enough in the new software to easily and quickly redo them.  At some point in time, I understand that Eagle 7 just won't be compatible with my hardware/OS.

JG: It's going to be a really long time before V7 isn't compatible with your OS, EAGLE V4 still runs under Windows 7 (and possibly 10 haven't heard of anyone trying yet) and it's over 10 years old. You can feel free to hang tight and see how things develop, if with time you like where EAGLE is going then you can always subscribe if you wish.

For that reason alone, as someone who is price sensitive, upgrading to v8 seems very dangerous/risky.  Actually, it seems to me the longer I wait to migrate to something else, the worse off I am.  I mean, sooner or later I'll probably outgrow my existing v7 Maker license.  With the current AutoDesk Eagle licensing scheme I'd have to make a big jump from the $100/year tier to the $500/year tier if I need a slightly larger board.

JG: Just so you know, the limits of the new Standard(closest thing to the hobbyist) are area based so you can make boards longer or taller than what your Maker license allowed as long as the area is less than 160cm^2. So you might be able to stick with the $100 tier longer than you think.

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Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

[synfinatic]

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@jorge.garcia wrote:

JG: Seems like its not a good question to ask, if you can't believe the answer you are going to be given. In this regard, I'm sure Matt will answer so I don't want to step on his toes. I would encourage you to look at how other products in Autodesk Portfolio have been priced under subscription and how they have changed over time. If you look at the LT suite of tools the pricing is very reasonable for good functionality. Additionally, if you look at the Autodesk corporate mission (http://www.autodesk.com/future-of-making-things) you'll see that one of the goals is to democratize design, I don't think Autodesk is interested in being used by only a select few, rather Autodesk wants their products to be used by everyone so their pricing is going to be sensitive to that. That's all the assurance I can provide, I'll get out of Matt's way now.

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The question is really more of a concern- sorry if I wasn't being clear.  And yes, I'd have a hard time believing it since AutoDesk has shown it can do a full 180 on a licensing policy after only 6 months.  I'm not saying anyone lied, just that things change.  I don't really know why things changed so I can't make any informed decision about the future.  Tip of the iceberg or ????  So yes, unless its written down in the license agreement in a manner which is actually legally enforceable (like that SLA we're talking about in the other thread), I'm going to be skeptical.  AutoDesk just hasn't earned the trust of the Eagle community by it's recent actions.  Maybe over time it will rebuild that trust, but that's going to take a while.

If you really want me to look at other AutoDesk subscription licensing, I'll be happy to talk about the other AutoDesk product I use: Fusion360.  I pay $0/year because that product really wants makers using it and so I'm allowed to use it for free (at least for now).  So yeah, AutoDesk isn't really being that consistent across it's product lines when it comes to makers like me, so it's hard to make any real determination.  And Fusion360 heavily uses the cloud for saving files (which sucks btw!) and so I'm worried that's coming to Eagle as well, even though we've been told there aren't any plans on doing the same with Eagle.

That said, I do like the new 160cm^2 that v8 has... the old strict method is really annoying for people like me who are trying to put their board designs inside a COTS project box.

Regards,

Aaron

[matt.berggren]

You should contact the sales / support office in the EU or the US and we'll figure this out for you.

Best regards,

Matt