Xref and Data Ref usage

[MHDCAD]

I'm not new to AutoCAD, but I am fairly new to Civil 3D.  I'm trying to understand what the best practices are for working with different references in civil 3D.  

Right now we don't do anything super advanced in civil.  Often time we don't even have surfaces in our projects. It's usually a background drawing of the areas we are working in, a survey file for things like our sanitary and storm structures then some linework.   I've been brainstorming what makes sense for us as far as the use of xref vs data refs but then I realized that I couldnt data ref my survey file.  With just points.  At least not that I could find.

I've attached my flow chart of what I was originally planning for reference.  The lighter blue are files that will get used only in certain projects, not every time. 

How is everyone setting up their drawings structure as far as xref and drefs?

[pghcivil3d]

Generally speaking I like to minimize the use of DataShortcuts as much as possible, unless you need to show the original source data differently or use it's intelligence in another file.  If you just need to use it for visual/plotting purposes then Xref is the way to go in my opinion.

[Kevin.Spear]

Hello, best practices for Civil 3D content are driven by the types of projects and the size of the team working on the project. Based on your comments, the projects require multiple people in different roles internally and externally (sub-consultants) to work on the documents.

In this scenario, the typical scheme is similar to what you might do in vanilla AutoCAD where you have linework files that you XREF into sheet files. The primary difference that Civil 3D introduces is where to put the C3D objects; either in those linework files directly OR in a 3D object file that you DREF into the linework file.

C3D objects in the linework file - for some, this is the simplest method. For instance, a linework file named R-GRADING would contain proposed grading linework. You could create an FG surface and use a surface style to display the proposed surface as needed. Some negative impacts here are that the content needed to define/edit that FG surface will live in that R-GRADING file. Why is this a negative? all surface content would then need to be frozen when XREF'ed into a sheet. Also, the content will increase the file size.

C3D objects in a 3D object file - In this case, we would create that same FG surface in a file called 3D-FG which has the content needed to define/edit the surface. We would then DREF the surface into R-GRADING using the same style as mentioned above. The difference here is that there is only a cached picture of the surface in the R-GRADING file while the content used to make the surface is back in 3D-FG. This makes the R-GRADING file smaller and easier to manage.

Lastly, the "object" that seems to have the most impact on C3D performance is object labels. In the original edition of C3D (~2009), these labels would automatically regen for each layout in a given DWG, even if the labels were outside the view on a layout. In other words, if you had 100 object labels for c3d objects in modelspace and you had 10 layouts with viewports that displayed portions of modelspace and without viewports, those 100 labels get regenerated 10 times when plotting/switching each layout.

With that in mind, many firms would minimize the number of sheets in a sheet file, even going down to 1 layout per sheet file. If you still had those 100 labels in the XREF and only 5 were in the view, C3D would still regen all labels even for that one layout sheet file that actually only displayed 5 labels. This led to the ability to label C3D objects through an XREF (~2014). For proposed linework XREFs that contain C3D objects, we could now put those 100 labels into the specific sheet files (existing linework XREFs we still put the labels in the XREF for consistency). Fast forward to v2023, and we now have a couple of toggles to hide labels outside of the view! https://help.autodesk.com/view/CIV3D/2023/ENU/?guid=GUID-1E307BEC-B3D9-412E-8C6A-C2CAB8B3E9B1

Also, if those DWG files are on a company server, network traffic and file server performance can impact C3D as well. If they are in cloud-based host (Autodesk Docs/OneDrive/Egnyte/etc), then the network performance is improved since the file you are editing is cached locally to your machine.

As you can see, there is lots of information to digest. Best practice techniques really boil down to improving C3D performance. Good luck!

[Joe-Bouza]

IMHO and experience NEVER  Dref into and xref ... It is a resource sapping killer.

Xref only acad native object and dref c3d object into your production drawing

[Kevin.Spear]

Joe, interesting... I've not had that particular issue. When you say "resource sapping killer," what exactly happens? Does C3D crash or hang? Or does it take longer than usual to save/plot/etc?

I would also be interested in where you put your c3d objects in your structure...

[Joe-Bouza]

Hi Kevin

It definitely slows things down.

Our designers work alignments , profiles , surfaces, corridor, pipes etc in a separate drawing from deliverables. These "c3d" drawing xref any base files, topo etc. The c3d file would be mostly segregated  by discipline with some flexibility EG made in it own file and so on. the EG is drefed into FG; which would have the proposed surface and the objects to get there...

Pipes in there own dref EG & FG...

XREFs contain only flat linework

deliverable sheet xref the flat line work Dref the c3d and annotated.

I believe this is the best practices outline by Autodesk. Or at least my interpretation.

I have found: Unless you are using Projectwise or something like it, Drefs in XREFS are out of date if the sheet is opened without the the xref opened first

[MHDCAD]

Sorry it took me a while to get back to this. I really appreciate all the information you guys provided here.  I think the biggest thing that I learned is I need to do a lot more research on this topic to see what will work best for us. 

For me personally, my issues is just not being familiar enough with the C3D objects and how they get created/used.

@Kevin.Spear  - Thanks for the long explination.  I really appreciate it. 

@Joe-Bouza  - When you say "best practices outlined by AutoDesk"  What is this referencing?  Is there documentation I can read to see what they consider best practices?

[Kevin.Spear]

You're welcome. There is the best practices guide in the help located here:

https://help.autodesk.com/view/CIV3D/2024/ENU/?guid=GUID-394E4463-964C-4233-BC27-5ECB5B03E4E3

Specifically, here's the link about project structure:

https://help.autodesk.com/view/CIV3D/2024/ENU/?guid=GUID-555EDF7D-EDB8-447E-B612-32D2CFA8C43B

[Kevin.Spear]

Interesting... I just tried this process. I have a sheet file with XREFs. In those XREFs were DREFs. With all files closed, I edited the source object file and then closed the file. I then opened the sheet file and the DREF in the XREF was updated. I also published from the sheet set manager having all project files closed. This method also updated the DREFs.

As with any "system", there are pros and cons; does anyone want to discuss the merits of using DVIEW vs UCS for rotated views?  🙂

[Joe-Bouza]

@Kevin.Spear 

Glad it works for you. It definitely is a performance killer here.

Wait as second. You are editing a civil3d source file, never opening the xref that host the dref, and you then open the sheet drawing and the dref in the xref is up to date? 

...are you sure? Is your work flow similar to what I describe?

I did not think that was possible

[Kevin.Spear]

Yes. That is accurate.

[Joe-Bouza]

Hmmm… 

no Projectwise or Bim360 type application

what type of data did you update?

[Kevin.Spear]

Alignment. Which changed a corridor in the same dref file. When I get back to the office, I’ll post a video…

[Cadguru42]

---

@Kevin.Spear wrote:

Interesting... I just tried this process. I have a sheet file with XREFs. In those XREFs were DREFs. With all files closed, I edited the source object file and then closed the file. I then opened the sheet file and the DREF in the XREF was updated. I also published from the sheet set manager having all project files closed. This method also updated the DREFs.

As with any "system", there are pros and cons; does anyone want to discuss the merits of using DVIEW vs UCS for rotated views?  🙂

---

What version of C3D are you using? I worked on a project for a large firm that had a source drawing of just sanitary pipes that was DREF'd into another XREF with the labels and that drawing was XREF'd into the various sheets. Whenever I made changes to the pipe network I had to open/resync the DREF's before the sheet would show the changes. 

I wonder if Autodesk has changed something with newer versions?

[Joe-Bouza]

Thanks for confirming what I have experienced since 2007. The only time I have seen the work flow update without explicitly opening the xref firs is when a file management software is involved; Projectwise specifically.

[Kevin.Spear]

Just came across a video for Civil 3D collaboration and how Tetra Tech is using ACC and Civil 3D.

https://autodesk.wistia.com/medias/xn7kzw1zsn?mktvar002=5841367008%7CEML%7C46014251&utm_medium=email...

Jump to minute 37 where he describes their workflow...

[Joe-Bouza]

They don't go into synchronizing. It all about file open and plotting

I find it difficult to understand a sheet file with drefs in it opening 10x slower the a xref-dref laden files

this fellow is have a similar problem not xref but it might as well be 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/civil-3d-forum/synchronize-entire-project/m-p/12146532#M496536

You say you did a test where you put a dref in xref A, and closed it.

then opened the source file made civil3d  changes saved and closed

with out opening xref A you opened Sheet file B that contained Xref A and all the civil3d objects were updated.

I did the same test with no success and the file drags on open

I am confused

[gbattinPH5TG]

Kevin,
I am totally interested in doing whatever can be faster and less draining on computing speed. But what we deal with a lot is that our various sheets require surfaces to jump from 1'&5' contours in one drawing and another sheet from the same project at 2'&10' or more... So I have said to my guys that is why we do data referencing for our surfaces into the drawing. (and another reason is that our proposed surface file has a ton of labels and "notes -to-self" all over the place from the designer on a noplot layer...)
But let's say that we had a project where most sheets were at the same contour interval - say 1' & 5', would it speed us up if we made a clean file (without notes and labels) if the users were to XREF the surface file instead of Data referencing it in?
thanks
~Greg

(edit to explain in-case someone doesn't understand - If someone XREF's my surface model into their drawing file instead of DREFing it. how I have it set to display let's say 1'&5' contours & triangles are turned on. That is how it will display in the files that XREF that surface file...)

[Kevin.Spear]

Hi Greg. I totally understand your situation. I would have to see your structure to really provide any assistance. But from a general view, why wouldn't you just have an EG model file for each surface display type you need? I do get only labeling the EG once and having that work for all sheets. That's what we would do with environmental plans that show other things besides contours (like steep slopes, elevation banding, etc.).

In general, not having DREFs in sheets is what speeds things up. Here's some context on plotting time from that video link talking about how TetraTech configures their projects:

Plotting time for ~75 sheet projects:

• Server Project with drefs in sheets ~ 8 hours; 10-15 min to open sheet file with one layout
• ACC project with drefs in model, model xrefed into sheets ~ 3 hours; migrated to cloud but accessed via vpn
• ACC project with drefs in model, model xrefed into sheets & local ssm ~ 20 minutes, no vpn
• ACC project with drefs in model, model xrefed into sheets & web ssm ~ 10 minutes

C3D has made strides in DREF syncing and label refreshing in recent releases. Cached DREFs are automatic for everything but surfaces (couldn't cache until 2017); which means the DREF is not reloaded automatically unless the timestamp on the source file is newer. You have to tell surfaces to be cached either in the command settings before the reference is made or in the properties of already created DREFs. https://cadpanacea.com/wp/?p=1739

Also, being able to label in the sheet file (and only having one layout) was the only way to minimize label regen times. All labels used to regen automatically in a sheet file times the number of sheets even if the label only was visible in one sheet. Now, you can tell C3D to only regen labels within a viewport for that layout. Starting in 2023.2, there is a status bar button to deal with label regen/display. https://resources.ascented.com/ascent-blog/labeling-civil-3d-objects

That was long-winded, sorry. I may have even mentioned the above in this thread or another, but I lose track of these discussions. 🙂

[Kevin.Spear]

Joe, I made a short video and have attached the dataset for you to test. Let me know if this helps. 

https://app.screencast.com/QK3sDqZO06zlv

Now, why does it work for me and not for you? I am running c3d 2024 with the out-of-the-box configuration. I suppose there might be something in your configuration that causes the process not to work. Hard to tell without seeing your data.