Unable to remove points from surface

[camptech]

Civil3d 2019

I remove points from a point groups used to build a surface.  I update the point group.  I manually rebuild the surface.  Right click on surface name and Edit Surface Style;  turn triangulation on --> triangulation still shows points deleted from point group are being used in the surface definition.  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Points 302 & 303 specifically excluded from point group ExGround:

Points 302, 303 do not appear in point group ExGround:

Point group is manually "updated," Surface is manually re-built, and yet point 303 is still being used.  WTF?

I've got work stacked up.  I'm behind.  And I'm wasting time trying to debug problems like this.  I'm losing money because of this BS.

I've also audited the drawing (found two errors, fixed, yet problem remains).  I've closed and re-opened the drawing.

Grrrrr...

[camptech]

I may try building a new surface from scratch, but I have a bunch of breakline edits to re-apply.  Is there a quick and easy way to copy all edits from one surface to another?  Or am I going to have to hunt around the drawing adding breaklines in the same manner as I did before?  Probably at least another 30 minutes there.

I may try creating a new point group with a different name, but the same set of points, adding it to the surface, and then deleting the old point group from the surface definition, but somehow I don't like adding duplicate points to a surface.  What could go wrong?

[camptech · Accepted solution]

It turns out that my points in question were part of a breakline that I had to manually create to resolve some triangulation issues.  If a point (i.e. a Civil3D COGOpoint) is part of a breakline that is part of the surface definition, then removing the point from the point group used to build the surface is necessary but not sufficient by itself to remove the point from the surface definition.  All breaklines (could be more than one if one allows crossing breaklines) that use that point also need to be deleted from the surface definition.

I found the offending breakline by right clicking the surface name in the Prospector, selecting surface properties, Definition tab, turning ALL breaklines off (which removed the point from the surface definition and triangulation showed the point was no longer being used), then turning "Add breakline" operation types on, one-by-one.

Turning the offending breakline off then removed the point from the surface.

[KirkWM]

Maybe see if your surface has a snapshot and remove it. Right click the surface name in the prospector and you'll find the options there.

[camptech]

@KirkWM -- thanks for that suggestion. I will tuck it away for future use, if my memory will serve. In my case, the point was part of a breakline I had manually created to resolve some triangulation issues. It was not a "normal" breakline. It appears to be in a layer I have turned off. Unfortunately, Civil3D still does not permit one to quickly identify linear "objects" (lines, polylines, 3Dpolys, features etc) that were used in a surface definition. There are different hacks, work-arounds, work flows to try to get around this deficiency, but they are all, IMO, PITA's and cost time. FWIW.

[camptech]

Good news / bad news.

Good news:  My workflow at least has me creating / placing breaklines on a separate layer.  I was able to fairly easily find the 3dpolyline in question.  Deleting the 3dpolyline automatically removed it from the Breaklines collection in the surface definition.  That was fairly painless in that that 3dpoly was only created to be a breakline. 

Bad news:  There is no easy way to identify which Breaklines definition contains a given breakline in question.

For example, what if the line in question was used for something else?  Edge of road, or driveway, or concrete?  Yes, you could copy that line to a "breaklines-only" layer, but what a PITA.  But then there would be "duplicates" of objects on top of each other on different layers.  And if one does not want duplicates on different layers, one may not wish to, for example, delete the boundary of a house, or walk, or concrete that may double as a breakline.

I am aware of no technique that would permit me to quickly identify which breakline group contains the breakline in question, even if I am able to identify it by layer and workflow.  The only way I can figure out is to be sure all possible layers that might contain the breakline, for which one is searching, are turned on, to then turn OFF all surface breaklines, and then turn those Surface breaklines on/off, one-by-one, in the surface definition.  For surfaces with a bunch of breaklines, that is a real PITA.  (And time waster.)

[rl_jackson]

When I create a breakline, I never include the points that are used to create that breakline as part of the definition of the surface. If you are including them IMO your doing it incorrectly, and this information is duplicate information that is not necessary. A 3Dpoly, featureline, survey figure etc... has all the information needed for the surface to be generated based on the data of the breakline.

[camptech]

@Anonymous, OK, I see what you are saying. However, I see no easy way, then, to create my surface point group which contains ALL points that are NOT part of a survey figure. Not easily anyhow. What is your workflow, then, to keep surface group points separate from points that are part of survey figures, or 3dpolylines etc?

OOOPS! Wait! I really meant those points to be a breakline... now I have to find the appropriate point group, edit that point group and manually exclude the points that I use to manually create that breakline? That sounds like a PIMA and rife with opportunity for errors. What am I missing?

[rl_jackson]

I have a point group that is strictly for Surface Points, which creates a surface automatically on import but is off in the style. This group has Ground Shots only. Everything else is coming from the figures that already have a defined point associated to it and C3D already knows the elevation. There are some instances where I might include a few additional points, for cases where a catch basin or some other drainage structure may lie in grassed areas, but those are usually easy to add into the group either by description or by doing a drawing selection and adding them in.

[camptech]

@rl_jacksonthanks for that description.  I am trying to wrap my head better around what you describe.

So do only ground shots, e.g. code "GS" or "G", go into your surface group by default?  All other survey points are part of survey figures?  All those survey figures would have to be added as breaklines, then, wouldn't they?  But from my way of thinking... a fenceline survey figure, though I can call it a breakline, is not necessarily a topographic breakline.  So are you adding things that are _not_ breaks in the topographic surface (as you stand in the field and look at them) to the surface as Civil3D breaklines anyway?

And... I *NEVER* ever make any booboos in the field.  No sirree.  But if I were to fat finger the coding on the data collector, and forgot to turn off the "B" (for begin) when starting a TOP line... then I would end up with a bunch of separate "TOP B" points... which would not turn into survey figures because they are only one point, and they wouldn't make it into the surface group because they are coded as survey figures (that just happen to be broken.)  How do you guard against those kind of field snafus?

Thx.

[rl_jackson]

Yes in the Surface group it is just the GS, and as stated I only add others on special circumstances.

Regarding the figures being breaklines, that is determined in the figure database I have my Fencelines, but they are not set to be a breakline whereas my EP, BC, EC, etc are set to be breaklines.

[camptech]

If you have survey figures that are not breaklines, and the points that define those survey figures are not added to a surface via a Point Group, how do those non-breakline survey figures get added to your surface?

Are they added by right-clicking Surface [name] > Drawing Objects > Add ?   And then you select, for example, all the survey figures that you have placed on (a) certain layer(s)?

[rl_jackson]

In general, the ones that are not checked never get added to the surface as breaklines, there not needed nor would I want to added them to the surface. That does not mean that I can't modify the SDB, to make a particular figure a breakline that is normally not one.

As far as getting the figures in the surface as breaklines, I just select the figures heading in the database, right-click and select create breaklines...., it ask what surface I want them to go to, and I give a name etc... for all of them simultaneously. You can also select them individually but from the database is way easier.

[camptech]

OK, I understand what you are doing,but do not necessarily agree with it.  In the field, if I shoot a fenceline, for example, every location I take a shot not only locates the fence, but is a valid surface observation.  I do not want to take a fence shot, then immediately take a ground shot.  That is not efficient use of my time in the field.

I see that in the surface definition in Prospector, there is a "Drawing Objects" heading.  I may experiment with adding non-breakline survey figures as surface objects in that manner.  That may avoid adding points to a surface in a multiplicative manner.

Regarding adding all survey figure breaklines to a surface via the survey database ... yes that is handy.  But let's for discussion sake say that one of those survey figure breaklines is causing a problem.  How do you identify which survey figure is the culprit?  If I right select a breakline in the surface definition and choose "Select...", the entire surface is highlighted.  Not very helpful.

I suppose if you can identify the offending survey figure, you can simply click on that survey figure breakline and delete it (or remove it from the drawing).   Hmmm... or do you go to the Survey Database, find the figure in the database, and "remove" it from the drawing?   (Because if you delete all breaklines (that are survey figures) from the surface, then re-add breaklines via the survey database, the offending breakline will be added back in...)

[rl_jackson]

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@camptech wrote:

OK, I understand what you are doing,but do not necessarily agree with it.  In the field, if I shoot a fenceline, for example, every location I take a shot not only locates the fence, but is a valid surface observation.  I do not want to take a fence shot, then immediately take a ground shot.  That is not efficient use of my time in the field. Again there is nothing saying you can't add a fence as a breakline after the fact. Just edit the figure, hit the check box that makes it a breakline and it will be added when your go to add the figures from the database.

I see that in the surface definition in Prospector, there is a "Drawing Objects" heading.  I may experiment with adding non-breakline survey figures as surface objects in that manner.  That may avoid adding points to a surface in a multiplicative manner. You can use that but you'll need the objects to have elevation which then its better to use featurelines

Regarding adding all survey figure breaklines to a surface via the survey database ... yes that is handy.  But let's for discussion sake say that one of those survey figure breaklines is causing a problem.  How do you identify which survey figure is the culprit?  If I right select a breakline in the surface definition and choose "Select...", the entire surface is highlighted.  Not very helpful. I don't have breaklines that create an issues, your issue is your adding all the points to the surface and creating breaklines (Super time consuming) with the points vs. using the figures. 

I suppose if you can identify the offending survey figure, you can simply click on that survey figure breakline and delete it (or remove it from the drawing).   Hmmm... or do you go to the Survey Database, find the figure in the database, and "remove" it from the drawing?   (Because if you delete all breaklines (that are survey figures) from the surface, then re-add breaklines via the survey database, the offending breakline will be added back in...) There is never an offending breakline, if I change the figures in any way, I'll just remove the breaklines from the surface and re-add them. Takes only a couple right-clicks.

In almost every case, when I create a surface It's at most a 15 minute task even for very large files, I make sure all my figures are correct, add them and them to the surface turn on the contours and inspect it to verify contour run along the face of curb, and ditches are flowing correctly, I haven't had a need to flip triangle or edit lines in a very long time.

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