In-house server or the cloud, how does your organisation handle Civil 3D drawings?

[m_kingdon]

Hi all,

It is server replacement time at my employer. We are undecided whether to replace the server with a new unit and keep everything in-house, or start using the cloud for all our Civil 3D projects.

I am unsure whether the Construction Cloud is suitable as a server replacement. The marketing seems to push the collaboration benefits of the cloud workflow, but we use only Civil 3D for the majority of our projects as they are land development. The architects usually come in later when lots become available to purchase.

I am also concerned about the BIM Collaborate Pro license and whether everyone in the organisation will need the Pro License in order to use drefs.

Does your organisation use the cloud for all Civil 3D projects, both small and large?  

I have used the cloud myself for several projects and I am quite familiar with BIM, the workflow, and the benefits etc.  I am just not sure if I can recommend it as a server replacement.

[rl_jackson]

My firm currently does both. Using the server and have a group on Autodesk Cloud product. (Forma or whatever name for C3D)

[Cadguru42]

On in-house projects or those we're in charge of we use Egnyte (https://www.egnyte.com). It works very well with C3D and can allow collaboration on projects while keeping everything smooth. 
When we work with outside firms, most of them use ProjectWise. Even though Bentley is slow to update and PW can slow down drawings, ProjectWise is still one of the best cloud solutions for C3D (ironic) as it handles data shortcuts and now pipe catalogs.

Autodesk's latest cloud (whatever the heck it's called today. BIM360? ACC? ACC360? ACCWBCP?) can't even handle C3D projects as well as their main competitor. Unless it's changed in the last few months, can ACC even notify a user that an XREF/DREF was updated and ask to refresh/reload? There is no notification of an updated file and the user has to manually refresh in order to see the latest version of a file. That in itself was a complete deal breaker for us internally and why we ended up with Egnyte. 

[jroot]

We have a server onsite and store nothing in the cloud. We had a rare internet outage the other day (road construction nearby) and were still able to open/save which was nice. The only negative was the one employee working remote was not able to get anything done while we were down.

[AllenJessup]

We use a local server for the projects and OneDrive for backups.

[KirkWM]

Does Egnyte still support data shortcuts and pipe catalogs and such files that are also hosted in Egnyte?

[Cadguru42]

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@KirkWM wrote:

Does Egnyte still support data shortcuts and pipe catalogs and such files that are also hosted in Egnyte?

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Yes. For the end user Egnyte basically is just a drive letter. Behind the scenes it keeps a local cache of what's on the "cloud" and the only thing C3D sees is just a drive letter. 

As an update to the OP, we just got a client that's using ACC. Everyone had to use Desktop Connector v16 and it's just not production ready. It has so many syncing and locking issues that the client has started requesting their subs to keep their files local and just use ACC as a file repository. In other words, don't use it for live production with regards to C3D.

For example, there is a file path limit of 260 (258?) characters, so any kind of project naming and discipline sub folders end up taking tons of characters before you get to where project files are placed. If you try to keep your pipe catalog in the project folder you'll get warnings and errors about file paths being too long, so ACC is basically useless for pipe catalogs. 

Autodesk removed the ability to force a sync with Desktop Connector v16. It constantly fails to sync properly and the only way to fix it is to move the file(s) out of ACC onto your local drive, then move back to the ACC folder. That will force a sync (sometimes). I personally spent a few hours earlier this week just troubleshooting trying to figure out why a 233k PDF was stuck on Sync pending. That led to everything else also being stuck. Just creating two new empty folders were also stuck syncing. Had to restart the workstation and apparently DC v16 had to be force closed by Windows just to restart. When I asked the client about it they said to keep things as local as possible in regards to anything CAD (not Revit) because they've been having issues so much with DC. Even projects on DC v15 had problems, but not as much as the "new and improved" version. 

[Chaznsc]

From a pure performance standpoint, a local is always going to be faster IMO. Unless I HAD to, I would stay local. Our company uses the nasuni server system due offices over many states. Its great, but its noticibly difficult at times depending on whatever is going on with the internet. 

[CADmgrMike]

@Cadguru42 ,

Does Egnyte work well with Sheet Set Manager?

The .dst file has been a constant pain with anything other than local except for when we switched to Panzura. Even then, someone accessing through VPN is told not to use SSM.

[Cadguru42]

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@CADmgrMike wrote:

@Cadguru42 ,

Does Egnyte work well with Sheet Set Manager?

The .dst file has been a constant pain with anything other than local except for when we switched to Panzura. Even then, someone accessing through VPN is told not to use SSM.

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We've not had any issues at all using SSM on Egnyte. It keeps a local, cached version of the files when needed so there's no speed issues and it's not a VPN. 

[CADmgrMike]

multiple users in multiple offices?

We do all our rename/renumbering, detail callout placement, etc in SSM.

If a user has a latency issue, we've had instances where the dst file went to 0kb because at some point two people tried to edit it.

What about the work offline feature? Someone checks out a dst file to work offline, there's no lock file like a dwl.

It seems to me the chances of conflicting data is great.

[Joe-Bouza]

We recently moved to the cloud but not an autodesk cloud. Private and I see no issues with Drefs. on occassion there is a lag but for the most part it looks and feels like the server is in the closet behind me, but its 1,000 miles plus from here

[m_kingdon]

Interesting.  So latency is not an issue at all?

Since the time I posted this question, the directors have made the decision to join the ACC and use it to host all Civil 3D projects files, whilst non-CAD files will be hosted elsewhere.  Rollout is expected early next year.  I will write about our experience and share it in the forum so you can all learn from our experience.

A new Azure data centre has just been built near Auckland and should be online soon, I can’t find the exact date.  I am surprised the directors didn’t opt for this option instead.  But I don’t know the cost of these things.

I haven’t kept up with the latest developments in the ACC, Desktop Connector and SSM (ACC version).  They didn’t feel finished and ready for industry last time I checked, but I also know AutoDesk are working on them.  In my situation, I feel like the train track is being hurriedly assembled in front of the fast-moving train that is our switchover.

I am still unhappy about the BIM Collaborate Pro license that we all need just to use DREFs on the ACC.  We are civil engineers who do the earthwork, roading, stormwater side of things.  We don’t use Revit or Plant 3D, we don’t need clash detection, templates, project tracking, or pages full of insights.  It think 95% of the BIM Collaborate Pro will go unused.

[CADmgrMike]

I'm on the same page as far as ACC. It doesn't appear to be quite ready for prime time.

We're looking at migrating to Egnyte from Panzura, and I'm having heartburn about it.

[MichaelH13]

We had a training session a few weeks ago and the trainer covered how ACC works. It looks good for those who like a simple, easy to understand interface to manage all their files and who do not have the time to manage their own folder structure. 

Automatic uprevs are a great feature.

Staff collaboration when many working remotely is very helpful. I think it would be more beneficial towards remote workers than an office environment.

It puts all the hassle of managing an NAS (or equivalent) on someone else's shoulders.

As we currently run our own NAS in the office, we do not rely on an outside server so internet connectivity is of little concern at the moment, but it was a pertinent question posed by us. In short, a copy of the file is cached locally so you do not have to wait on the server.

If you have the skills in house to run your own NAS, then it is probably the better way to go, however ACC looks like a viable alternative for some.

Bear in mind, my experience overall is very limited and we only had a brief 30mins or so on ACC.

From my notes, a BIM Collaborate Pro licence is required to manage the data shortcuts with Autodesk Docs.

[Cadguru42]

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@CADmgrMike wrote:

multiple users in multiple offices?

We do all our rename/renumbering, detail callout placement, etc in SSM.

If a user has a latency issue, we've had instances where the dst file went to 0kb because at some point two people tried to edit it.

What about the work offline feature? Someone checks out a dst file to work offline, there's no lock file like a dwl.

It seems to me the chances of conflicting data is great.

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There is a waiting period when unzipping a file with lots of smaller files. It takes a bit for Engyte to sync hundreds of files at one time even if they're very small, like 50kb. 

I've only had one project where Egnyte caused some headaches and it was when I was working on a large, existing ground surface that had a MMS file that was around 80mb. For some reason C3D wanted to rename the MMS, which caused Egnyte to have a sync issue because C3D couldn't rename a file that was in use by Egnyte (for sync'ing). 

[Cadguru42]

For what's it worth, we have not had a project work smoothly with ACC and C3D at all. Desktop Connector is horribly buggy and constantly locks up on syncing files. There's a file name/path limitation that causes problems when trying to store a pipe catalog on it because Autodesk loves long folder and file names. The last project we worked on with ACC we had to do all of the civil work locally and just manually upload the files to ACC for the other disciplines. We couldn't work directly off of ACC.

[m_kingdon]

I worry about this a lot. Our admin department love making long convoluted folder names for our projects. Were you able to resolve the file path limit?

I also found Desktop Connector had a mind of its own, I did find newer versions were becoming more stable, but I didn't test the new version much.

I attended a Revit meetup earlier this year (there are no Civil 3D meetups in Auckland) and they discussed their recent switchover to ACC. They experienced many teething issue but overall they said it was a good move. My concern is I think the ACC has many additional benefits for Revit users, but few for Civil 3D users. I think it will be a lot of pain for few gains.

Either way, it is happening and I will document our wins and loses as they arise.

[Cadguru42]

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@m_kingdon wrote:
I worry about this a lot. Our admin department love making long convoluted folder names for our projects. Were you able to resolve the file path limit?

I also found Desktop Connector had a mind of its own, I did find newer versions were becoming more stable, but I didn't test the new version much.

I attended a Revit meetup earlier this year (there are no Civil 3D meetups in Auckland) and they discussed their recent switchover to ACC. They experienced many teething issue but overall they said it was a good move. My concern is I think the ACC has many additional benefits for Revit users, but few for Civil 3D users. I think it will be a lot of pain for few gains.

Either way, it is happening and I will document our wins and loses as they arise.

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There was no way to get around the file path limit for that project. We just didn't use ACC to store the pipe catalogs. ACC still just isn't ready to compete against Bentley's ProjectWise that now has the ability to share pipe catalogs. 

Another client is about to start a new, very large project using ACC with Revit 2023, AutoCAD 2023, Civil 3D 2023 and Desktop Connector 16.4. It's for a waste water treatment plant and most of the project is structural and process mechanical. They're using Revit, but there is going to be some civil aspects to it as well. They are adamant that we use ACC for it, but we're also budgeting more time and expenses than normal because of how bad ACC is. We'll see how well it works out, but I don't have high hopes.

[bjacobVULCL]

This is the exact forum conversation I have been looking for. My firm is in a similar place as the OP and I am wondering if ACC is right. Currently we operate in a hybrid capacity with 1-2 days a week in the office and the rest as WFH.  We also have about 10% of our users as geographically remote and are therefore full time WFH. We have an in-house server that we access via VPN when WFH. 50% of staff uses RDP to access their office workstation and 50% have dedicated CAD workstations at home. We are entirely Civil 3D based. All users with dedicated home workstation are currently experiencing latency when opening and savings files over VPN. This ranges from 3-30 mins to open a file depending on complexity, # of xrefs & drefs, etc. RDP users have no latency issues even though they also use the VPN to access their workstations. Our conclusion is that VPN just can't handle the bandwidth demands.

Currently our firm is contemplating more office workstations and RDP, better VPN services, or going with the Cloud and transferring to ACC. I am curious if other firms in the AEC realm are in the same dilemma. From what I've read about latest Desktop Connector is that it handles drefs well but it seems actual experiences are different. I am not familiar with ProjectWise or Engyte so i'll have to take a look at that those as well. Very curious where people fall on this subject as I know Autodesk is pushing ACC hard but that certainly doesn't mean it is the best option.